Diagnosis - 'Liberated or Labelled?"

Does a diagnosis liberate you - or just give you a new label to carry? Toby and Rudy get into their own late diagnoses, the years of masking that came before, and the complicated mix of relief, grief and anger that follows when someone finally tells you why life felt so much harder than it looked for everyone else. A honest conversation about what not knowing costs you.

Connect with us here, we would love to hear from you - Hello@tobyandrudy.com.

Please reach out if you are interested in coming on the show.

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:08

We live in a world that never stops offering more. More to buy, more to scroll, more to numb, and more to escape. Until the wanting becomes normal and stopping feels impossible.

Speaker 5 0:19

And somehow, the harder we chase it, the more burnt out, anxious, addicted, and disconnected we become.

Speaker 2 0:27

This is More, a podcast hosted by people with lived experience of addiction, mental health issues, trauma, and neurodiversity. Where the pursuit of more led us to rock bottom and has since led us to finding alternative ways to live.

Speaker 5 0:41

Each week we have raw, honest conversations with each other and our guests, grounded in lived experience about what the chase takes the most and what's possible when you stop running.

Speaker 2 0:53

Through these conversations, we hear a diverse collection of stories and experiences from those who have found an alternative way to exist in the world.

Speaker 5 1:01

These conversations are recorded in a single take with no editing, so what you hear is real and unfiltered. Some names and places may be changed in order to protect those sharing their stories.

Speaker 2 1:14

Welcome to more. Hi and welcome to more. And I'm Rudy. Do a little check-in, mate.

Speaker 5 1:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:45

Yeah. I'm feeling do you know what? I'm feeling energized. I was last week last episode, we did an evening. And it's different energy in the evening, isn't it? Yeah. So certainly after that, I'm feeling I'm feeling a lot more positive. I'm feeling good. I feel a lot of gratitude today. I've I woke up with the kids and and had to do the whole daddy daycare thing, you know, which is a blessing, tiring, but yeah, I've I've loved every minute of this morning. So I'm I'm I'm blessed and grateful and positive. Excellent. How about you, mate?

Speaker 6 2:36

Yeah, feeling feeling pretty good, man. I think sleeping alright at the minute, and similar. My my son's mum's a worse, so I have been daddy dirk for the last few days and the rest of the week. Nice. So we've had a good good few evenings, and there's there's football, so we've watched a bit of football together.

Speaker 2 3:00

Nice.

Speaker 6 3:01

Yes, it's been nice. I think things are moving in the right direction with everything at the minute. My recovery's feeling good, and you know, I think my my stability, my mental stability is feeling pretty good as well. Good. So yeah, feeling quite grounded and you know, grateful, I think.

Speaker 2 3:24

Yeah, that's good, mate. I got asked why we started doing check-ins. So I thought I just caveat this with for me, check doing a check-in is something I've learned to be really important for me because my default setting when anyone and anyone asks how I am is good you. Yeah. And as an overner from the yeah, I'm sound. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you? Yeah. So yeah, just changing that dynamic when someone asks you how you are, yeah, you know, actually take taking a check on yourself and and and actually checking in with yourself as to where you are is I think is really important. Yeah.

Speaker 6 4:06

And to to look past as good, bad, sad, angry. Yeah, it does. And it's like how how are you really feeling? And it makes you look internally, doesn't it?

Speaker 2 4:16

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've I'm still working into that. But yeah, that's that's that. So um what's what's been going on for you this week, mate? What has been going on for me?

Speaker 6 4:30

Finished my website with my new business partner, ready to launch a new it's what we've what we've both done work-wise, but you know, we're coming together and creating a business from it. Nice. Uh so that has that's been exciting. It's the website has been a labour of love, but we got there in the end. I met someone about some work yesterday, and it was a positive conversation. So we'll see, you know, and the rest is recovery in the meantime until I am back in the game work-wise, you know, it just gives me that extra time. I've been meditating a lot, and I did a private sound bath on Saturday, which allowed me to get my balls out. So I was actually in the sauna last week talking about my balls, and because of my accents, because of my accent. A woman said I thought you were getting I thought you just said you were gonna get your balls out in the sauna. And I had to explain that it was singing balls.

Speaker 2 5:37

Yes, it's the British can be so prudent.

Speaker 6 5:40

So it's been good to get those out, and you know, I've not really used them after hurting my back moving house at the end of last year, so it's been good to get back into it. Yeah, so I've just been trying to grab myself a bit more and just hanging out with my son in a football match. What else have I been? Yeah, just hanging and chipping away one day at a time. Yeah, yeah. How have you been getting on?

Speaker 2 6:06

Yeah, good, thank you. I don't know what I've been doing. All seems to be a bit of a blur this week. Same as you, actually. I've been doing a bit of work. So end of last week I went away with my daughter to uh spread my nan's ashes. That was lovely, and then came back and I've done a little bit of work and then I've had a new excuse me a new potential of some sort of future work and a couple of meetings and stuff like that, and going around a couple of old clients and sort of just catching up. So feeling good about it. Yeah, yeah, it's just yeah, just it's all moving in the right direction. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, I'm yeah.

Speaker 6 6:57

Alright. Shifting, shifting back into it's like after early recovery, you know, now it's like getting getting back. What was that what was that saying? We had a positive, a contributing member of society. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 7:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, that is literally it, isn't it? Yeah, getting back to being that sort of yeah, member of society again. I had to take myself out of society when I came into recovery because you know, I wasn't acting in a in a way that was compatible with that.

Speaker 6 7:28

Yeah, and I guess that brings us on to what we're talking about today, really, is one of the reasons why we found it hard to be a positive, contributing member of society over the years, you know, which is I guess being getting those getting your diagnosis of the mental health, the neurodiversity, the the other things that you've had going on. Yeah. And it kind of gives you that well, this is this is what we're gonna talk about. Does it does the label make you labelled or does it make you liberated? And what our own experiences have been with that, and that part of that is the diagnosis, the the coping mechanisms, the masking, and then you know, that that cost of what has happened in that undiagnosed period of trying to perform like a normal human being. Yeah, mate. You know, which for me uh my first diagnoses were in my mid to late thirties, you know, I'd caused a lot of damage in those years prior to that. And I guess it's you know, where how we felt getting that diagnosis.

Speaker 2 8:45

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, whether whether it's sort of set set you free. Yeah. Yeah, or or kind of because you know, you could quite easily recoil from it, couldn't you? Yeah. As well as as well as mm, you know, leap forward. Yeah. That's cool. Well, we've got a bit of what have we got? A bit of documentation here with some statistics on that we can refer to as well. Did a bit of research, keep it factual, yeah.

Speaker 6 9:11

Straight facts. And so, you know, the numbers behind what is going on in the UK currently, so 15% of the UK population is neurodivergent. That's roughly 10 million people. 10 million people. It's crazy, isn't it? And not not knowing, like 50% of those are not diagnosed until they're 18, until they're adults.

Speaker 3 9:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 9:37

You know, and I think from the through those struggling through those most formative years as a child in the school, the the very old school school environment. Is the damage already done there? Yeah, yeah, and the trauma, you know, the injuries of you know, not fitting in the sheer guilt, the panic attacks. You know, I think for me, any public speaking, I was literally having a panic attack, you know, even just reading in English, excuse me, you know, knowing that it was coming around to my turn, I'd be like sweating, nearly passing out, like going white, like, and then I just couldn't get my words out, you know. I heard all of that pressure, yeah. And like if you know, for me, like I can see now why I could never do my homework well or get round to doing it, is because of the ADHD. Yeah, right. You know, and it's it's like all of the stress for kids of making excuses, forging notes on the bus, yeah, you know, all of already lying, manipulating, yeah, you know, masking.

Speaker 2 10:50

Yeah. I see I see this massively in my daughter, you know, she she shows quite a lot of ADHD traits, and you know, if I didn't have the awareness I had, I could just I could literally like I was in school, just punish her because she just cannot sit still. I've never noticed it, so I'll call her my little butterfly because she's just like even when you're talking to her, she's like climbing up down, upside down, whatever. But like the the sort of because it's frustrating, especially when you're trying to teach them something, the the go-to is so it's my phone ringing again. The go-to is just frustration with them. You know, why aren't you doing this? Stop doing that, and and you know that that builds into them what was built into me is like you're not doing it right, you're just not doing it right, you're not living, you're not being right, you know, you're not being you're not existing right. Yeah, it's trying to nurture it, isn't it?

Speaker 6 11:52

But yeah, your patterns are so deeply in ground of what you know from your parents doing that to you. And it's like, yeah, you know, yeah, I get it.

Speaker 2 12:02

I catch myself, you know. Yeah, so 50% of no age of age adults not diagnosed until uh age 18, which is mental considering the NHS basically wait time is three to five years.

Speaker 6 12:16

Yeah, which you know, if children in that learning environment of school are expected to get GCSEs and you know whatever else at the end of of the school of their time at school, yeah, or air levels, which is pre-18, yeah, and they flunk because they're not catered for correctly. Totally. There's a lot of society you've got those long-term effects of the fallout of that, yeah, and the self-worth. Yeah, it's all connected really, isn't it?

Speaker 2 12:46

Yeah, massively. And yeah, and we'll get into that sort of like the internet connectivity between all of them a little bit later on, but like so three to five years that says. When I so I I went private for my diagnosis in the end, because my GP told me it was a minimum of six years. Yeah. Six six years. What is there just like one like psychologist out there doing diagnosis or what? Crazy is that these statistics speak to, you know, a real deficit in you know people getting correct and timely diagnosis. You think that would prompt some some some areas of you know retraining or b building building that part of the NHS more rather than stretching it more.

Speaker 6 13:47

Well, one of one of the first psychiatrists I spoke to when I got home from treatment, I don't know how true it is, but he said the reason why the waiting lists are so long is not because there's not the staff, there's not the budget allocated to catering for the all of these new applications for a diagnosis. So he said that it's not that there's not the staff for the competency, he said the government just haven't budgeted for this huge increase, so they cut they don't have the funds to offer that service. Yeah, and I don't know how true that was, but it kind of makes sense, yeah, yeah. And then I think yeah, I guess as as neurodivergency has become more, you know, we have more research and more knowledge, and if you you can listen to many podcasts and read books and articles about you know how it all is now, it's more prominent in society. But I also think from my perspective, I'd be keen to see the research that does come out down the years of the the increase in neurodiversity is how that relates to the all of the things we've fed as a society of social media, the algorithms, being on your phone, you know all of those things, TV, binge watching TV, yeah, and it's like all isolating everything as well, you know. And it's all just distractions from being conscious and present. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which ultimately, you know, for ADHD and you know, there's is part of that, isn't it?

Speaker 2 15:36

You can't focus, you can't be present. There's some really interesting studies done into uh whether neurodiversities can be not caught but caused, yeah.

Speaker 6 15:50

I suppose. And I think that's one of the things that Gabo Mata sa is says, like, you know, along the lines of not to quote him because I can't remember. But he says, you know, the the neurodiversity ADHD is just a coping mechanism for being in survival mode in childhood, you know, which I agree with to some extent. Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah. It's all very complex, man. Yeah. But a lot of it makes sense. Depends on what you read, I guess.

Speaker 2 16:19

Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so what percentage of people with ADHD get diagnosed at adulthood then?

Speaker 6 16:28

It's uh 70%, which is, you know, huge amount really is a lot. And then it's kind of like all all of the other stuff comes what comes with that, you know, all of the trauma you put yourself through, PTSD, like the situations you get yourself in, like people who are neurodiverse are prone to addictions, which we both know and have experienced, you know, it's good it's crazy, isn't it? It could be just yeah, I think that the the system as a whole.

Speaker 2 17:01

Yeah, well, prone to so much as well, aren't you? In the most neurodivergent categories, but common being obsession, yeah, compulsion, yeah, you know, just the OCD, stimming, you know, self-stimulation.

Speaker 6 17:19

Yeah, well that's my leg just never stimming it.

Speaker 2 17:21

Yeah, exactly, yeah, and there's so many of them in there, but you know, when you when you kind of think of a a life as sort of like a a linear chart and and and you put all of these sort of like they're kind of like roadblocks, aren't they? Yeah. In along the line, you know, everything becomes so much more complicated through your life in in just lots of little ways, as well as the the major ways, you know? Yeah. Um, which all build up to be, you know, a bit confusing.

Speaker 6 17:54

Yeah, and I think they cause you like like the masking. Like a prime example of my leg is like I work in an office environment in my career when I lived in London, and then I'd just my leg would just be going and I'd be working. But then people down the end of the desks are complaining that this monitors are shaking. What's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, but it's because of my legs, just don't stop going.

Speaker 2 18:19

God don't want to sit by Rudy today. He doesn't stop.

Speaker 6 18:23

Yeah. Well, they'll just be like, and Rudy, can you can you um stop shaking your leg? And I'd be like, Oh yeah, sorry, then two minutes later again. It just goes, and then I feel more triggered and under pressure, you know, and I'm sweating.

Speaker 2 18:39

Yeah, and then all you can do is just concentrate on not moving your leg and nothing else.

Speaker 6 18:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 18:43

Yeah, mate. That's that's kind of so well have you how did you before before your diagnosis? Diagnoses? Is that diagnoses? Diagnoses is Diagnostics before you had a diagnosis of of whatever, uh what did you sort of tell how did you justify the stuff that you did to yourself in your head? Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 19:11

I used to just justify it as you know, this is how I was brought up. Yeah. This is my hometown. I'd love my hometown. Yeah. And I'd be like, you know, I took I grew up not giving a fuck, really. Yeah. And this is how I'm meant to, this is in me, this is my how we are from where I grew up.

Speaker 2 19:30

Yeah. That's like justification for like the like attitude stuff. Do you mean the Well just yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like What about like the the repetitive, addictive, compulsive stuff?

Speaker 6 19:45

Well, I guess that's just kind of like I just I just put that down to I'm just doing what everyone else is doing around me. It was never me who was the problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just getting a monster. Yeah. It's everyone else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But then it's not really knowing, like, I kept having breakdowns and mental health issues through my 20s, but then I would just use through it. Yeah. You know, it's it's only when I I think we've discussed like it was only when I was in romantic relationships and someone, you know, was seeing me day to day, yeah, that it then becomes apparent because I I left home quite early. I was very, you know, on my own for many years in London before finding a partner.

Speaker 2 20:33

Classic sort of chameleon type personality stuff, isn't it? Don't be around anyone too long, which gets built into you as a neurodivision person.

Speaker 6 20:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2 20:42

For them to get annoyed with you. Yeah. So keep keep your circle small and random.

Speaker 6 20:48

Yeah. And that's that's it. And then I think like I as I was said before, it's like I just lived a double life in the day. I was working in an office being a professional, and then I was the minute I left, I was just being a retrobear.

Speaker 3 21:02

Yeah.

Speaker 6 21:03

And then when you start drinking with people in the office, you know, they can see the crossover very quickly, like getting kicked out of work's Christmas parties and having sta sex with staff members, and you know, doing all of the stuff that we're in your 20s, you think you're just having a good time, but you're actually causing a lot of damage.

Speaker 2 21:24

Yeah, just being that guy.

Speaker 6 21:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 21:27

Yeah. And then you realise that's just how you are. Yeah. It's not just a gap yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6 21:34

And then, you know, and you're just, I guess now looking back, having that self-awareness, I'm just like, how didn't anyone point it out to me before? And I guess that's kind of getting diagnosed as an adult. You know, there's there's a lot of anger of like how have I done all this? You know, because there's there's been good things in my life. But a lot of those bad things could have been very easily avoided with an earlier diagnosis. Yeah. And I had to a lot of a lot of the work that I've had to do is just accept that, you know, it it all happened. Yeah, yeah. Having the awareness now helps you move forward. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for you, like how's that how's that get getting the diagnosis? How's that been for you? And like how did you go up?

Speaker 2 22:30

Well, I mean, if if if it felt great for so as a child for me, I was sort of different, which I never really understood why. And again, like you, I sort of thought it was my environment. I was always sort of like the outsider. Yeah. In in every scenario. Yeah. You know, I just somehow just ended up being like the odd one out. But so I I was just I was basically just annoying. Yeah, mate. I thought I was just a nuisance. Yeah, I mean, I just ev everyone just kind of thought I was just a bit annoying. After they kind of the more someone got to know me, the more annoying. Yeah. So then becoming an adult, having grown up like that, I sort of pretended to be the kind of person who wasn't annoying, which is where what brought me to that kind of comedian It's that double life. Yeah. That's exhausting. Yeah, masking. Yeah. Totally. So getting the diagnosis was was like because I so I went I went from being uh young, yeah, just being called annoying, basically, and bullied and stuff like that, to sort of when I was in the military and there's no hiding from each other there. You know, you're all confined spaces together to being called autistic, you know, by sort of you end up being around some quite clever individuals, you know, the member of the armed forces that I was in, it kind of attracts sort of intellectual types as well. And yeah, that's when it went from being like you're a bit annoying to being well, you're obviously aspergic. Yeah, yeah. So which I was kind of offended by because that was kind of like a a derogative thing. Yeah, because it was in my head, it was it's used as an insult as well, really.

Speaker 6 24:40

Yeah, and I guess like as time's gone by, like back then for me for me, like my cousins had ADHD, but I it's like a well, it's like addiction, isn't it? It was like I can't have it because I'm not as bad as the Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 24:54

You know, yeah, yeah. And then yeah, so but when I went so when I I I paid privately to go for an assessment with a um what's the name of the type of psychiatrist who does it? Can't remember it comes to me. But yeah, so I paid and had a psychiatric like assessment basically off the back of my therapist saying you show clear signs of ADHD and autism. I think it will help you to get an assessment mentally as well as literally, because I do struggle with with certain things literally, and then just having somebody who is a clinical psychologist, psychiatrist, I think is the name. Just having somebody who's you know a properly, you know, qualified person for my brain, having somebody like that tell me and explain to me why. And you know, I got a massive report. Yeah, it's like it wasn't just like a oh yeah, that you you you're just autistic, cheers. Yeah, it's like a 70-page Yeah, that's a mind massive as well. Yeah, you know, it's it's it's my entire brain just dissected into words on a on on the on the page, it's terrifying. Yeah, but it it it it clicked with me. It did it literally as soon as as soon as I saw it and read it and it was backed up, the way my brain works, I was just like Yeah, yeah, it is, and I could instant in an instant I could correlate so many times I've struggled, so many issues I've had, so many things I've never understood, the times I've been, you know, in an instant they all just flashed into my brain, and that was I think that all for me that a lot of stuff just processed and that acceptance stuff that hangs as a fuck, why did I do that?

Speaker 6 26:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could have done that differently. The things that always crop up when you're sat on your own, yeah, and you're or you're triggered, yeah, and then it's like, oh yeah, fucking hell. And and I think, you know, one for me, I was always trying to fix myself or trying to change myself to fit in. Whereas now, after getting the diagnosis, I'm just like, I don't have to change, I have to embrace who I am. Yeah, like trying to change to be in relationships and trying to make relationships work, and you know, yeah. I think you know, now I just have to look after myself the best I can so I can co-op.

Speaker 2 27:35

That sort of stigma thing there as well that we sort of like touched on for um I think the the thing that neurotypical people all never understand is basically that, you know, that that obsession that we have in our own brains. And I and I genuinely think that's where a lot of the stigma comes from. That's where a lot of fear of telling people comes from for me is because that it's like they literally can't understand. Yeah. They literally can't understand, yeah. Um and forensic psychiatrists, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The words I was looking for. I I had to pause the recording then to figure that out because I literally couldn't think of any other word. Yeah.

Speaker 6 28:31

And I think I think that's it, that's you know, I agree. I think, well, it's the same as addiction, isn't it? It's like why do you have to keep going back to it? A person who isn't addicted just can't fathom why you can't stop doing something, or like, why can't you just have a few drinks? As you know, the there's no self-control. Yeah, yeah. You know, the addiction is is you either have it or you don't, I think. And yeah, I th I think it's it's a it's a very complex, complex web. But you know, I think I think getting my the biggest thing getting my diagnosis and sharing it with people who've flagged it, you know, close pe people who I've been close to and people, colleagues who suffer have been diagnosed as well.

Speaker 2 29:26

Yeah. Who was the first person you told?

Speaker 6 29:29

Well, I had a I had a partner then. Yeah. And part of getting it was because she kept saying, I think you might have ADHD, think you might be autistic, you know, and then so I was like, all right, yeah. But I still I still remember feeling the shame because I I sent her I sent her my report to read, and she just she just never read it, you know, and then I was like, great, I've done all of this because you keep flagging it, but then you haven't even taken the time to to look at her to understand her.

Speaker 2 30:00

That's a shame, mate.

Speaker 6 30:02

Yeah, so that and I told my my son's mum, you know, and we spoke about what that might mean for my son, and I've you know, I followed up with my site uh my therapist and we spoke about you know whether my son needs a diagnosis or a test, uh not a diagnosis, to be assessed, yeah, yeah, or whether to just let him have his childhood and see how it plans out because it's not guaranteed that he, you know, it's not nailed on that he's gonna be neurodiverse. And yeah, I guess I told my siblings, you know, I think I've said my my sister is neurodiverse and she's bipolar. My brother has, you know, he's he's been exploring a little bit more. A lot of my family have ADHD and autism, like cousins who've looked into it. Yeah. And you know, so it's like I've said recently, I reconnected one of my cousins who's been diagnosed with ADHD and autism, and we just went and hung out and had some good conversations around it, and like, you know, how we can see it in that the generation before us, you know, our parents, and but they're so like stiff upper lip northerners that you know. And I think tell telling my parents, like one of the things my mum had said was like there's no such thing as like depression, you just get on with it.

Speaker 2 31:34

Yeah, yeah. You know, just think you're trying to use it as a fad or an excuse.

Speaker 6 31:40

To do to be lazy, be a victim, yeah. And so I guess I guess telling for telling those people, you know, and I guess being transparent with people who I work with that while I have struggled and things in the past. But we have for you, who who were the first people that you were telling?

Speaker 2 31:59

Yeah, so same partner, then a sponsor as well. Yeah, right, rang my sponsor up because I needed to chat through it, which is good doing that with him, but it was also to give him awareness of it, and then and then my therapist, like you said, yeah, and that is another huge area where it's helped me because I'd done I'd done some you know, done some therapy leading up to this therapist being like, you know, I think you should get a diagnosis or whatever. And then since getting a diagnosis, my therapy has been tailored to a neurodivergent person, yeah, yeah. Which makes a huge difference. Yeah, yeah. Huge difference. It's because I you know, I went to a a a therapy session right early days, you know, when I was still figuring everything out. And basically all he kept doing was going, and how does that make you feel? Yeah. After sort of every you know, CBT. But I was like, I don't know. And he's like, Well, what do you mean you don't know? I'm like, I don't I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I don't I don't that that's the bit that's missing. Yeah. And now my therapist now, who sort of doesn't specialise in neurodivergence but treats a lot of neurodivergent people, so kind of specialise that you know, she cuts the questions the right way. Yeah, yeah. She doesn't float around the fluffy bits because she knows that I just don't understand, and I'll just give her an answer to shut her up.

Speaker 3 33:34

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 33:35

And she'll she'll she even gets halfway through explaining something, and then I'll go, hang on, let me reframe that. And she'll just give it me in black and white and and it goes in. Yeah, yeah. When when it's given to me in the frame that I understand, yeah, it goes in and it works and it helps and I can use it. Whereas when it's it's framed for someone who thinks differently, I just I just it none of it goes in.

Speaker 6 34:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that's a lot of a lot of the world. I'm like I can see back now, like chat just having normal conversations and feeling so awkward, and people are talking to me, and none of it's going into my brain. Yeah, yeah. And I'm just there like stone cold.

Speaker 2 34:19

Please don't ask me a question.

Speaker 6 34:20

Yeah, yeah. And you just like and that's why I would drink and use so much. I just feel like and then I could just have, you know, I'm just I just don't have that ability to connect and read situations. Yeah. And yeah, it's it's it's it's very freeing getting the diagnosis and like that and now it's hard at first. Is there anyone you didn't tell? 60 63 million people in the UK. Haven't told everyone.

Speaker 2 34:54

No, um well, presumably 63 million people are gonna listen to this, mate.

Speaker 6 35:00

No, I think like I've I've always been quite open about you know every most things in my life, you know, over the years. And I I guess because we wore a lot of it as like a badge of honour when you're when you're living in that madness and you're driven by ego. I've always been quite open. So if anyone asks me, I'll I'll never hide him. Or you know, I guess, I guess as we've discussed before, like even people are like, Oh, you were in Thailand for three and a half months, how was it? Must have been amazing. I was like, Well, I was in a mental institute, a facility. I wasn't entering Thailand, other than that, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was suicidal at rock bottom, but I was having oh yeah, it was great. And I think it's I've just always been quite open, and I think one given that awareness now is you know, the it's just understanding myself more, and I can see clearly why my relationships broke down, why some friendships have struggled, why I can't do certain things, you know. I think just having that self-awareness is a blessing. I'm grateful for that, really. And I yeah, I think you know that having having that having the diagnosis, the label, the labels that we have, you know, it does from a day-to-day basis, you go through your mindset changes from why do I keep doing that? What's wrong with me? Why why can't I do this? To you know, oh this is why, this is why I need to do it differently, just take a breath. How can I deal with this differently so I don't, you know, hit the same it's understanding your patterns and trying to change them. You know, no one's perfect, you it it doesn't always work, but it's learning and moving forward each time. And I think it's like what I we were discussing earlier having the understanding helps me to be a better parent, like I said yesterday after my son's piano lesson. He said he he got in the car and he's learning a song, and he couldn't get it right. And he said his piano teacher said something to him. And at first, because the way that he explained it, he said, like, come on, you can get get the chord, and I said, Was it said in a negative sense? And he said, No, no, it was like positive, and it made me become overwhelmed, and I nearly cried while I was playing it, but in a good way, and then it's kind of like because I have that awareness now, and I know the feelings wheel, and it's kind of like, oh, like how did it make you feel good or bad? Like, which way are we going with this? And he said it made him feel good, and you know, we figured out that getting that, you know, getting that encouragement and validation then made him feel a bit overwhelmed but good, yeah, because it made him believe in himself and then he finished up, you know, where he he found it a bit overwhelming. Yeah. And just having, you know, understanding what I understand now.

Speaker 3 38:22

Yeah.

Speaker 6 38:23

It allows me to have those conversations, you know, and he came home and I said, the way that I do it to help me is that I journal and record all of these things, and then when I'm triggered again and I get that feeling, I go back and read it and then be like, oh, this is the route, this is what I felt the route was, what's changed, and then he come home and he journaled, journaled it. That's right, yeah, it's so nice. It's quite an amazing thing to do. That's so nice.

Speaker 2 38:50

If that's not an an an advert for why awareness is the key of all this.

Speaker 6 38:56

Yeah, and so that's you know, it's quite an amazing thing. But you know, I think on the the flip side of that where we we've said is it liberating or is it you know what did we say? Is it is it being labelled or is it being liberated, you know?

Speaker 2 39:14

For me, liberation. Yeah. A hundred percent. But the stigma of the label as a sort of like chaser, because there's still people I haven't told deliberately. Who have you not, you know? You know, I don't tell my clients. Yeah, yeah. I haven't told a lot of my family. Yeah. You know, sort of like extended family, as it were. So the guys who I saw last weekend, you know, I don't think any of them know that I've had a diagnosis of any of it, really. And and sort of some friends from back home because back there it's a little bit further behind the times than we are here. Yeah. Well, I've I've not told many of the levels.

Speaker 6 40:08

Just because they don't then probably don't give a shit anyway.

Speaker 2 40:12

No, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm I'm I'm I'm afraid of them not giving a shit. Yeah. I think slightly. You know, I'm I'll be I think I'll be a bit offended by it. Yeah. You know, I'm only just sort of processing this now, really, as it's coming out. But and you know, I just the this this I guess what I'm saying is the stigma's there for me. Yeah. Still. Yeah, yeah. Just for whatever reason. I think it's just a built-in, you know, learn world defense, isn't it? Yeah. Keeping yourself safe. Yeah. It's a coping mechanism. You know, it shouldn't be, should it? You know, it should be quite the opposite. Yeah. Which is what we're trying to do.

Speaker 6 40:56

But I think you get there over time. Like, I think now I'm quite open about it. Like in that first conversation I had with these guys about doing some work last week, I just said I just come up in conversation. Yeah. I said, Well, I can understand you know, because I'm neurodiverse and I have this and I've been diagnosed to this and this, and then it was open and out and that's really important. Yeah, yeah. And I think for the work that I do, you know, it it gives me that attention to to detail. Yeah. And you know, the perfectionism that comes from being autistic and ADHD or DHD or whatever. Yeah, yeah. You know, that that helps me in my work because what I do, you need to have that attention to detail because you're working with you know people's confidential stuff.

Speaker 2 41:49

Yeah, yeah, totally. Have you have you ever felt like you've played up to your diagnosis? I don't think so. No.

Speaker 6 41:58

I think I j I just think it comes you know I think I've probably tried to play down it before I was diagnosed. Yeah. You know, and masked a lot of it. I don't feel like you know, I think I'm quite authoric and some days are better than others with it. I d I don't feel like I've had to since being diagnosed, I have performed to it. I guess you can use it as an excuse for being not wanting to do certain things. I've probably used it being like, oh, I'll do it later. You know, it's because I'm I'm this, I can't do too many things at once, so my brain you my brain doesn't work like that. Yeah. But I don't think I've like play play act, I'm not very good at the the no role-playing. Very like what you see is what you get. Yeah. Like, you know, I'm quite one piece.

Speaker 2 43:06

I've I've I've I've had the mindset of it. I've had the thoughts of I can't really think of an example, but I I know I've caught myself thinking, you know, like almost like uh right, true like when you know, when it's like the almost the mindset of like, oh, what would a normal person be doing here? I kind of have that, but it does it doesn't come out in my brain like that. It's kind of like, oh, you know, do whatever. Just just just that masking sort of like chameleon stuff. And then I kind of have like the immediate knee-jerk reaction to that to being like, oh no, don't do that. What what would you know what doesn't all the autistic you know, because I don't know who I am at the moment, that's what I'm trying to figure out. What would David like? Should I be like what do you mean like that like I've had that internal which is like Like a millisecond thought, one of f seven million thoughts going on at the same time. But I've I have had that like not playing up to it, but like, do what do it should is should is this something I should be doing in this scenario?

Speaker 6 44:13

Yeah, but I I think that's just trying to, you know, where ultimately we're a what is it, a square peg in a peg in a round hole. Yeah. And so you're all that's how half of most lots of my breakdowns and burnouts are all that coming into question. Why aren't I normal? Yeah, putting a glove on a foot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it is a challenge, you know, but I think the more that people talk about it and the more we know, you know, it it does it does become more open and people can be more vulnerable with it, and that stigma around it starts to lift, hopefully.

Speaker 2 44:52

Yeah. How much of what people think they know about you is actually you then? How much of it's like this character that we've created?

Speaker 6 45:02

Well, I think you know, pretty much I like as you just shared that, I don't really know who I am, and being in recovery is me trying on that journey of self-discovery and healing, to know who I am actually authentically. Like, you know, I think for you example, you've met me in recovery of being quite authentic and trying to live more authentically.

Speaker 3 45:26

Yeah.

Speaker 6 45:26

But I think people from my past, you know, they know me as a as you know, the party goer, the very sociable, like my siblings know all as that, you know. I remember my my brothers, you know, we had to get siblings and family members to contribute to my assessment. And he said, like, you know, the life and soul of the party, and that's because when I was using, that's give me that opposite character of who I actually am. Yeah. And that's everyone in my life knew me as that other person because that's all I did. Yeah, yeah. You know, every single night that I could, I'd be using and drinking and socializing and trying to fit in and find my way. But really, that was all just a mask. Yeah. You know, there's when you're laid in your single bed in a flat chair in London on your own, hung over or on a come down, you know, there's a very different person behind it all. Yeah, definitely. And that's wearing that mask, you know, just it's exhausting. Yeah. And it's you're on a one-way ticket to one place, or sometimes you get to rock bottom sooner or later, you know. But I think everyone who is masking to those extents is gonna find a rock bottom if they don't find help. Yeah, yeah, totally. From my experience.

Speaker 2 46:56

Well, it's it's causing internal trauma. Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. You know, which leads to PTSD symptoms.

Speaker 6 47:03

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The the dangerous situations that I put myself in, you know, in London. Just look mad. Even in the Northeast, you know, everywhere I've been, the dangerous situations I've put myself in. Yeah. I just like because I don't have that self-control of, you know, I don't have the understanding of situations to answer. But yeah. I I think that's a good question, really, isn't it? I think like my parents probably don't well my I know my parents just don't know who I am at all. Like people people see me as one kind of person, yeah. And like spent half half of my life after I moved away, like going back to my hometown to see friends, and oh, you've changed. You've you've not that same person, you know. And people always saying that as I've tried to understand myself and what's going on, you know. And I've tried to change little things. Oh, you've changed, you know.

Speaker 3 48:04

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 48:05

You're boring, you're whatever. And it's all just been a long quest of me trying to understand myself.

Speaker 2 48:12

Yeah.

Speaker 6 48:13

But trying to fix myself as well, then rather than living in acceptance, which I'm doing these days.

Speaker 2 48:18

Yeah. And no one sees that invisible tax on every interaction. Yeah. You know, that that that that that mask going out in in public, let's call it, but the scripting, the rehearsing, you know, the the the having the conversations that you're gonna have with people in your head a hundred times before you get there to have the conversation with the person.

Speaker 6 48:43

And then when it goes wrong, spending the next hour replaying it over and over again.

Speaker 2 48:48

Yeah, yeah. Well, and uh you know, it can be days, can't it? Years, Christ, you know.

Speaker 6 48:53

I I I yeah And that's when you're at like a party or in a bar, someone else is talking to you, but you're playing that other conversation through your head and just you're not even hearing what they're saying.

Speaker 2 49:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a it is exhausting. Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, it is exhausting. And then you know, you go back to your like you said before, you know, you back to with self, we sort of call it now, don't you know, yeah, when when it's just you and you know, I'm not that person because I was the same as you, you know. Um you know, I've I've my mum said to me many times in the past, oh god, you know, I I bump into people and they say you're so like helpful and do this, do that, and whatever. But when you come back, you're just like, you know, you don't want to do anything, you want to, you know, and that's not just a a childish revolution rev child revolting, you know, that that was me going out pretending to be the person that the little old lady over the road needed, and then going back and just being so worn out that I can't even have a conversation. Yeah, you know, I'm just like I just I'm not interested in in having a conversation about something. I've just I've I've depleted my social battery, yeah. But having no understanding that that's happening, just just coming back into a house or like a safe space or wherever it was, and just feeling exhausted. I would do a home is just go and sit in my room whatever on my own. The the my my recharge is TV, yeah, always has been. I can literally switch off. Yeah, I can watch uh you know, because I can get so into the imagination of it. My it becomes a single track thought. I become in the you know, I get very integrated in it, and and you know, since a very small child, that's my recharge. But you know, in society, sitting round watching TV all day isn't thought of as recharging, is it? Yeah, you know, it's thought of being a lazy see you next Tuesday.

Speaker 5 50:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 50:58

And and and it r it really is, it really is funny. Funnily enough, my cousins are are one of my earliest memories at their house is because we didn't really have a TV when I was younger. We had like a little black and white TV, but we didn't get it until quite late. But yeah, my cousins had a TV. So when went round there, and I remember like just sitting in front of the TV and being like, Wow, and then like the programme or video or whatever it was ended, and um I was just sat in like a dark room on my own. And like two hours have passed, and they'd all they'd all gone, they're all off on a walk, you know. And I'm just sat there on my own, just like oh, it's blinked.

Speaker 6 51:34

Yeah, but like that was that, and I think for me that's been music. Music's always been like medicine to me. Yeah, okay, and it's got me through some very dark times of you know, I guess it's always kind of helped.

Speaker 2 51:50

Yeah.

Speaker 6 51:50

And I think I've I've shared with Ludovicho and Audi's modern classical, you know, has probably saved my life on many occasions. Yeah. I've been feeling suicidal.

Speaker 2 52:03

Just uh just uh I'm not promoting escapism. Just uh just just something I've noticed about about me.

Speaker 6 52:13

Yeah, and I and I guess you know that that is a big hard question that you asked me. I guess, you know, how much of of what people think they know about you is actually you as well?

Speaker 2 52:24

Yeah, I guess it's a big very little. Like we said, we've kind of both said now when you get into a relationship, there's no hiding is there, those are the people that start to see the real you. But right now, I don't know who the real me is. That's that's what I'm trying to figure out, that's what this journey is ultimately Yeah. I think I'm I'm I'm as real as I've ever been.

Speaker 6 52:56

Yeah, yeah, the same, and I think that's it, isn't it? And I think I don't have to perform anymore. Yeah. I'm just I am who I am, I'm trying my best, yeah. My life, you know. And I g I I guess I guess get understanding things now. Do you think if you had an earlier diagnosis you would have lived differently? Or or do you appreciate all of the stuff you've done, all of the traumas and everything you've been through?

Speaker 2 53:26

Has it made me here today? See that's that's the dilemma, isn't it? You know, am I am I the product of my environment? Yes.

Speaker 6 53:41

Yeah, I'm 100% now. I have that awareness.

Speaker 2 53:44

Yeah, yeah. I d I don't know, that's a that's a real conundrum. That's because I you know, I believe in that everything happens for a re well, I sort of believe in that, but you know, I kind of I believe that everything that's happened has led me to where I am, which is where I need to be, you know, and that's good and and so on. But then also there is that well, if if I had have come across this earlier, maybe would where I am now be a bit f you know better than where I am, which is a real sort of like dance, isn't it? Give it give it a one question answer, one word answer.

Speaker 1 54:33

Yes.

Speaker 2 54:34

I think yes, I think I would have done things differently. I think generally it would have been positive, more positive.

Speaker 6 54:46

Yeah. What about you? Yeah, I th I think you know, well, I guess you can't really change the past, but if having that awareness, I probably would have d lived my life a bit differently. And you know, probably could have avoided a lot of trauma, yeah. Negative patterns and self-destructive patterns, and you know, I know that some of the labels that I have been diagnosed with are gonna be there uh long term, and it's you know thirty odd years of my life, you know, of not knowing who you just can't can't put a thing on it, can you, to be like, oh yeah, I would have done all of this differently. Yeah, I mean it's a bit tough question. Yeah, yeah. But I do think, you know, just ultimately I all that I've been through has got me here today, and I'm grateful for the resilience that I have and the ability to sit and talk about it and share it with people and be confident doing that because that's my my truth, yeah.

Speaker 2 55:58

Yeah, and hopefully maybe we'll help some someone else.

Speaker 6 56:03

Yeah, and yeah, I I'm I'm keen to I know I don't know how much mean you individually will, but contributing to removing that stigma in ways, you know, with the way that I communicate it to people.

Speaker 2 56:16

Yeah, yeah, I hope so.

Speaker 6 56:18

But yeah, I think that the hard way there's lots of glamorising to be done in my past, you know, it's hard to overlook the the toughness and the the laws, you know. So I think it's I quite enjoyed some of the hardware. Yeah. But obviously the the consequences were that catastrophic and traumatic that you know the hardware isn't the easier. Yeah.

Speaker 2 56:47

I'd I'd love to if anyone's listening, hopefully there's at least one of you. If you had the language earlier, would you have done things differently? Or did the hard way make you who you are? Yeah. I'd love to hear some answers on that from other people. It's a big question. It is, it is. And sort of to wrap it up there, I think, it's a good time just to reiterate or recap basically pro or con diagnosis. I am pro-diagnosis. Same here. And if you you're listening and you're not diagnosed, but think you want to be all that's your sort of like path going on, you know. We we're we're here to support if we can, and you know, if nothing else, we've got love for you. And if you have been diagnosed, we've got love for you, you know, neuroaffirming. And I've got a little quote to to close us out on here. Yeah, all right. So we so the pursuit of more neurodivergent people run the productivity race harder than anyone, masked, exhausted, holding everything together because no one ever told them that there was another option. I think that sums it up for me.

Speaker 6 58:16

Strong way to end the episode. Yeah.

Speaker 2 58:18

All right, thanks for listening, guys.

Speaker 6 58:19

Cheers, guys.

Speaker 58:37

More to chase, more to know, more to escape, more screams, more pills, more noise, more thrills.

Speaker 1 58:51

We wanted more. We lost ourselves. We paid the cost. The deeper with the Always.