Stuck on the inside: The Freeze Response

Everyone talks about fight or flight. Nobody talks about freeze.  The trauma response that shuts you down completely, makes you look checked out, and gets mistaken for laziness, indifference or not trying hard enough.

In this episode of More, Toby and Rudy get honest about the freeze response from lived experience. Both are recovering addicts, CPTSD and Big T trauma survivors, neurodivergent, and living with chronic pain. Both have spent years being misread as disengaged when their nervous systems were doing the only thing they knew how to do: SURVIVE.

They cover what the freeze response actually is, why it's the dominant trauma response for CPTSD sufferers, how it overlaps with ADHD paralysis and neurodivergent shutdown, what chronic pain has to do with stored survival energy in the body, and crucially...what actually helps you come back online.

If you've ever been called lazy, difficult, emotionally unavailable or checked out - this one's for you.

*Bessel van der kolk - the body keeps score

*gabor maté - when the body says no

* https://youtu.be/qNffpAM5Zps - trauma releasing yoga

* https://youtu.be/WEvgacyBDN4 - Vegas nerve humming technique 

Share it, save a soul.

Get in touch, we would love to hear from you.

Topics: CPTSD | Complex Trauma | Freeze Response | Trauma Recovery | ADHD | Neurodivergent | Mental Health | Addiction Recovery | Chronic Pain | Nervous System Regulation | Men's Mental Health | Trauma Podcast | PTSD | Somatic Healing | Polyvagal Theory | Lived Experience

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:08

We live in a world that never stops offering more. More to buy, more to scroll, more to numb, and more to escape. Until the wanting becomes normal and stopping feels impossible.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

And somehow, the harder we chase it, the more burnt out, anxious, addicted, and disconnected we become.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

This is More, a podcast hosted by people with lived experience of addiction, mental health issues, trauma, and neurodiversity. Where the pursuit of more led us to rock bottom and has since led us to finding alternative ways to live.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Each week we have raw, honest conversations with each other and our guests, grounded in lived experience about what the chase takes from us and what's possible when you stop running.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Through these conversations, we hear a diverse collection of stories and experiences from those who have found an alternative way to exist in the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

These conversations are recorded in a single take with no editing, so what you hear is real and unfiltered. Some names and places may be changed in order to protect those sharing their stories.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

Welcome to more.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

And from the outside, it looks exactly like you just don't care. On this week's episode, we're going to talk about the freeze response.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Welcome to more. I'm Rudy. I'm Toby.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

How are you doing? Yeah, I'm good, mate. Yeah. You right? Yeah, good. Good. Good to be here and doing this again. Yeah, ma'am. And off the back of our first guest. Yeah. How'd you think that went? Yeah, it was alright, I think.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

Yeah. Yeah, I think we did well. It's a completely different vibe, isn't it? Yeah. Love to learn.

SPEAKER_05 2:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's good. I've had some feedback from Charlotte as well, and she's she she found it very cathartic and and therapeutic for herself as well, which was really good.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Yeah, it's nice that she got something from it. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Yeah, I think it was it was good. I enjoyed her.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Yeah. Do you want to uh do you want to do a little check-in?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Excuse me. How are you checking in? I'm checking in. I'm tired. I didn't sleep last night. Yeah, but I I gratitude. I had to do I did a good gratitude list this morning to bring myself back in to today. So I'm feeling grateful. Tired. And looking forward to today, actually. Wednesday's quickly becoming one of my favourite days. Podcasting therapy. Pumped up. Me, yeah. Yeah, it's just uh so yeah, good. That's good, man.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

About you. Uh yeah, mate, checking in. Yeah, I think similar. I'm sleeping okay, but I'm having crazy PTSD dreams, nightmares. Waking up very wet and hungry in the middle of the night after living a double life in my subconscious mind. But all yeah, all is good. Launched something new yesterday and feels a bit exciting doing that and trying to get moving with that now, I guess. Yeah, but all all good. I think it's a hot topic for me, especially that we're gonna talk about today, as I've probably spent most of my life in phrase.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Yeah, mate, yeah, same huge. We were sort of deciding on episode content, weren't we? Yeah. And uh when we started going through this subject, I was like, wow, even more than I've sort of explored already. Just you know, doing the deep dive on it, yeah. Being like, wow, this is like something that's consumed me. I knew I knew it anyway, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

It's a biggie. So I'm excited, yeah, it should be good.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Busy week, busy week. Uh can't even remember what I've been doing, man. Just working on doing that launch, caught up with a few people, had some teas, bit of exercise, not as much as usual. Get back on that today, and parenting there. Being present.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Yeah, mate.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

Yeah, how about you? Yeah, I'm the same completely unaware. I'm a bit disassociated this morning. What have I even done? Good stuff. I know it's been I just I think I've just been I've done a little bit of work, but it's been dry, isn't it? It's been dry. God be this will be day five, six, seven, I don't even know now. So I'm kind of like just realising all the things that have been left over the winter as I'm sort of going about my day now.

SPEAKER_07 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

And just just picking up some little jobs and you know, that sort of like summer repair stuff and spring cleaning and you know, fresh start. Yeah. Yeah, spending time with the kids and yeah, yeah, all sort of really wholesome stuff. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_04 5:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

You can see the sunshine coming through. It's very windy today, man. Yeah, I one other good thing that has happened. I my therapist has signed me off for the foreseeable. Mega. She's happy with where I'm at, which is good progress.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

That's amazing, mate.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Well done. Yeah, so that that feels good. Also feels a bit daunting of not having that.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

But she's always at the end of the new. Is have you set like a a check-in or anything? She just said message.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

It's always been the same for the last open ended years. Yeah. No. I'm here when you need me.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

Mate, that's really good. Yeah, yeah. That's huge, huge process progress.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah. Good, good to recognise it, I think. Yeah, mate. Because it's hard, especially in freeze, to just, you know, every day just going through the motions and not really recognising those the progress.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a real, you know, line in the in the in the sound, isn't it? You know, it's a proper a proper progress marker. Yeah, that's brilliant, mate. I'm both off for you. Funny that we're both having sleep troubles at the same time there.

SPEAKER_07 7:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Wonder if that's to do with the moon.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Yeah. Well my my sleep my sleep, I'm getting sleep, but I'm just having like these absolutely it's always the same. It's always people from my childhood getting chased. Yeah. Situations that I can't get out of, violence, lots of sex, and there's some using, but I don't often remember. Yeah. But then there's like I think the the medication that I take for the PTSD nightmares turns it more into lucid dreams, which I think prolongs them probably more, which is why I'm so sweaty. Okay. And like things that would have just ended as you know, something bad happening.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Like they get dragged on and on and on.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

Not quite as bad, but a bit longer.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I that's what I think. Well, I don't know how true that is, but that's what it feels like. They're not as traumatic, but they're they're dragged on, and they're having the you know, I'm waking up absolutely knackered and soaking, starving, like I've literally been to the gym. Yeah. Yeah. In my sleep.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

That's what you say, shredded. Yeah. I must have the opposite going on at the moment. I must just be sleepy. Well, that's cool. Somebody wanted to, I don't know if you if you look or not. I thought it might be interesting for listeners, just a sort of like general chat stuff. We've got, we can see, uh, let me find it. We can see where sort of how many downloads and listeners and stuff that we have on the podcast through our sort of software, like the platform that we run on. And it also gives us a bit of a breakdown of locations. If I go into here, I thought it's quite interesting. So I could I can I can s I can read off all the different countries that listen.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

From the hundreds of thousands of letters. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

So should we tell people how many we've got? No. No? Twelve. No, it's more than that. It's it's coming up for 500 anyway. Right, so United Kingdom.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Yeah. United States, France, Australia, Mexico, Canada, Spain, New Zealand, Brazil, Germany, Italy, South Korea, Philippines, and Sweden. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Quite amazing, really.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

It is. I've I that's one of my favourite things to look at. So hello to all of you out there.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Yeah, thank you very much. Listening to us two just sort of ramble, ramble on. That's amazing to think that there's people all over the world hopefully getting some of it from this. Yeah. Yeah, it's quite interesting, isn't it? And then it goes into cities as well, but I won't list off the 94 different cities.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Makes it feel a bit worthwhile. Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

And it's reaching people, which is good. Yeah. Which is part of why we were doing it.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

Awesome. Alright, well, today. Fight, flight. And then freeze, the freeze response. The one that's forgotten about, neglected, not talked about.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Yeah. And I guess as both of us who have CPTSD, this is the most common one that CPTSD survivors default to. Yeah. And you know, it's a parasyntic, parasympathetic nervous system response usually kicks in when neither fighting or fleeing feels possible. The body's last available option. You know, and I think that for me that is that has been a lot of my whole life. Yeah. And I think, you know, even even I've shared before, like when I used to be getting in trouble and I'd get arrested, I wouldn't fight or flight. I'd just be there. Everyone else would be smart enough to get out of there. And I just wouldn't be processing it. And then I'd be there.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Yeah, and then it even doesn't kick in after. Yeah, I just don't process it.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

I just never feel any of it. Yeah, same, mate. And yeah, I think you know, for me, the it's the internal is just absolute madness. But then on the outside, it just looks like I'm, you know, people my whole life. Well, now I know that I'm neurodivergent. Yeah. You're you you're just always so laid back. Yeah, yeah. You nothing faces you, and it's just like it's because I'm just f stuck in freeze. Yeah. Now I know with that awareness.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

Yeah, just checked out. Just dead inside.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yeah. And I guess you know, from from that, it's what I learned in treatment is like it's survival mode, your body, your nervous system is doing what it needs to do to protect you and keep you alive.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

Yeah, it's not broken, it's not, it's not damaged, is it? It's doing exactly what it's been taught to do.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yeah, and I guess the one thing that I've learned is that you you can't there's there's no easy way out of it. Your body has to naturally, by doing the right things consistently, your body starts to come out of it. Because over the years I've had periods where I've felt alright to some extent, but then something triggers me, and then I just drop back into that freeze. It's my natural go-to, everything shuts down, you know, and then it has bigger and bigger consequences on my life, especially as I get older. It gets harder and harder to break out of freeze. Yeah. Whereas, like now I've been home from treatment, what, 18 months, 17 months, and I'm still in freeze to some extent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like been to treatment now, I'm fixed, I'm backfiring on all cylinders. Yeah. As a lot of people think. That's what happens in treatment.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

You know, but it's still it kind of for me, it kind of feels like you know, like you've you were saying, you know, we're with we're figuring out who we are and whatever. Well, the the most sort of for me, the most sort of realistic, you know, probably the most can continuous version of myself has been this frozen. Yeah. So, you know, when I haven't been using things to to make me feel or make me feel less, bring me in and out of this. This is kind of like the state I've probably been in the most, which kind of feels like a little bit of my identity. Yeah. Um, and for me that comes out in a lot of like I don't care, I'm not bothered. Yeah. But not not like negatively, just I just I just don't. Yeah, I just don't. I just have no opinion a lot of the time. I'm just I'm just vacant, you know, there's so much inner shit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

And I I think that's what makes it hard socially as well, when people are like, I don't know, like things like politics and climate change and those hot topics that people like to get passionate and heated about, and I'm just there like flat, monotone, do not give a shit. And it's not like I don't care, it's just that my body just doesn't, I just don't have those emotions, yeah, you know, from being probably in freeze my whole life, and then it makes me feel isolated because I can't contribute, and then you know, I I get I guess I see that in a lot of conversations as well. I feel like I'm just boring people because I'm just like frozen and flat.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

Yeah. Disassociated, isn't it? You know, it's the that's the primary defense, isn't it? You know, it's disconnecting you from pain, from your body, from reality, these things that you can't deal with.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think you know, a lot of my life has been disassociated, and I've used substances to help to enhance that disassociation, disconnection, you know. And I think yeah, I felt like long periods of my life that the world is just passing me by. Yeah, you know, I'm not a part of it, I'm so disconnected. And I think one of the main the the main ways that I can judge where I'm at is how connected I feel to my son. Yeah, unconditional. Yeah, before going into treatment, one of the things that I was just like, there's no connection left anywhere. Yeah. And that's gonna get dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

Yeah, and we've we've talked about this before, haven't we? Yeah. It's exactly the same for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's my one sort of not safe person in the way that I'm putting that on them, but one one person that I know I can I can I can use as a gauge. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Some indicator of where I'm at. Yeah. That I'm codependent on him. But you know, I think if I'm not feeling connected to him, then something is wrong.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

So some some default patterns are prolonged sleep, daydreaming, you know, zoning out, TV screens, which is mastering the art of changing the internal challenge channel.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Well, and I guess that's like, you know, just distracting yourself from reality, isn't it? You're not present.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Yeah, and it's kind of something you can do on Waterway Pilot, isn't it? All of those things, they're all kind of what none of them have in common or what they all don't have in common is you know uh alert awareness. You know, you are you're on standby. Yeah. You know, and I I can I can I can really I can really relate that like this feeling this this freeze thing is like hits so hard for me. Like when I when I got I think when I hit the the worst part of my depression or when it sort of started really when it when I went down the hole sort for me I think I've always done had this behaviour definitely, but when I because obviously it overlaps with depression when I left the military and you know everything was taken away from me and I just kind of just I think I just went into that just like instantly that that standby mode. Yeah that uh I I did you know like the depression depression side, I didn't want to do anything and and whatever, but I I was just a passenger in it as well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

I I was frozen, I was and when you don't really have that awareness, it's hard to to communicate that to people around you, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 19:08

I I had no idea, and you know, I can remember being called like lazy and why do you not want to do anything? Why are you so just like detached, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Really? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think like you know, I think for me it sho it showed up in my a lot of my relationships, you know, my romantic relationships, intimate, whatever you would like to call that. Um you know, it'd be like we go out and then you have conversation with everyone, then you come home, you don't say a word, just you know, and it's like I didn't know what was going on, and then I'd want to say something, but I couldn't because I was burnt out from masking, yeah, as you know now, and then I just shut down, I'd feel attacked and shut down further and further and further. Overwhelmed, and then I couldn't get out of it. And in my lowest like cycles, like mate, that that's what happened in my build-up to going to treatment. I was triggered in September, and then from September to July, I just couldn't break it. It just was getting deeper and deeper, and I've you know, we've discussed I thought if killing myself was the only way to get it.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And it's like you know, it's without without this awareness, you know, we've obviously come come to learn about this, but without this awareness, that that feeling feels like there's no coming back from it. Yeah, you know, it just feels like you know, and it gets that worse and that deeper and that worse and that deeper and that worse and that deeper. Gets to the point where it never feels like it's gonna come off again.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Yeah, and I feel like every cycle that I go through in my life, there's been a few now and they get worse. I feel like a bit of me doesn't come back from it every time. 100%. I know exactly what you mean. And I feel like there's only so many you can do before there's yeah, you know, there's not nothing left to come back from.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand that 100%. The um and like freeze, so freeze looks like or can be misread as laziness, indifference, that you know, that's a big one, you know, not trying, not caring, you know, which which giv gets you labelled and and punished, you know, and written off by people as, you know, yeah, lazy or yeah, nonchalant. You don't care, but you know, it's not that you don't care about people, you just don't have that that sort of forward thinking.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah. Well, it's like you know, you're not able to meet other people's needs and expectations because internally you can't you're not even meeting your own. Yeah. I think people people don't understand that who've never s suffered from a you know I think when I went into treatment I wasn't eating, wasn't sleeping, wasn't supp I was isolated, I wasn't meeting my own, I wasn't showering. Yeah, all the signals are there. Nine stone, you know, usually I'm 13 and a half stone. Usually and then you know people can't see it, they just think you've been dramatic, or you've giving you tough love. I think the worst thing that I've experienced as well, don't you? Yeah, is that tough love that's because it reminds me of my childhood, yeah, and it just makes things worse.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yeah, puts you deeper into that disconnection, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

And I guess like now you have that awareness. Can you see how it's affected you throughout your life from the beginning?

SPEAKER_03 22:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like so much, so much. It is my because and I sort of the immediate thing that comes to my brain, because obviously I was in the military, which you get put into a sort of like a fight or flight, the you know, as they call it, sort of situations quite a lot, and and learn to control yourself in those situations and snap yourself out of different things. So I I you know I have I have the understanding of that and and and and how that's always affected me. But the the freeze thing is is actually where I go and then I kind of pretend to do the mask. Yeah, I put the mask on to do the fight.

SPEAKER_05 23:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

I pretend to want to be in the fight, I pretend to, you know, I I I know what that looks like, I've taught what that's like and how to get into that headspace and all that sort of thing. But yeah, throughout my life, freeze is definitely what I do. I'm I'm I'm in it now. I know I am. I've I've literally just had, you know, my business. It's the end of the tax year, isn't it? I've just had like a ridiculous tax bill come through, and I've just had basically a year off work, so I'm screwed. And what I should be doing, or what I should have done after the phone call yesterday, and all the paperwork and everything coming through is is sorting that out. And I haven't, I've literally just chucked it all.

SPEAKER_07 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

So I've just I've I've just shut down, and I think now I'm processing this now, and I'm thinking about yesterday and how I'm feeling. That's probably something to do with why I haven't slept and how I'm in this weird space and and and everything that's going on, but like bringing bringing myself out of that, you know, you can only do once you realise that you're in it. Yeah. So this is this awareness that we're always constantly trying to provide. And with just easy as easy as like a check-in, you know, just that.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yeah. And I think recognising the stigma of not doing that, especially for men, you know, it's not checking in and asking. There's there's there's like a campaign and company called Are You Okay. You don't it's like the easy is like you just ask someone how they're doing. Yeah. You know, but a lot of the time we don't. Or if or you're just like, oh yeah, I'm fine, I'm sound. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

I did it this morning when I walked in.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Yeah. But and I and I think like, you know, for me, I guess part of it is the neurodiversity as well, which was diagnosed in adult life. Like at school, you know, I've I shared before, like, I've fainted on the stage where I've just been so overwhelmed and fight or fright, I can't do it because you're on the stage in a show. Yeah. So you just freeze, and then I just faint. Yeah. Because my body, my nervous system and my brain just can't handle it. Yeah. In like having to present stuff to the class, your projects, I'd just be having panic attacks and absolutely shitting my pants about doing the most simp getting just saying, didn't want to say the wrong thing, couldn't control what I was thinking, so never knew what was going to come out of my mouth. Like, yeah. In 12-step meetings, I can listen to the shares and be like, oh, I've got something my experience I can share on this, and you know, hopefully, you know, maintain that atmosphere of recovery, and then what comes out is fucking completely different.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Yeah. And like being being, you know, I'm exactly the same, being neurodivergent, and the nervous system has a lower threshold for overwhelm.

SPEAKER_07 26:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

So again, that exaggerates that, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it brings it on quicker, you know, it's faster fatigue, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Sensory overload. Yeah. And then I I think that's now I understand it is that when I am shutting down, I just can't get out of it. And it affects everyone and everything around me, my work, my connection, you know, my relationships, my parenting, literally every aspect of my life. Yeah, definitely. Is there's there's consequences. It's like the core of your being, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Yeah. Well, it's a paralysis, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yeah. And it's hard to, I guess, you're feeling so much shame and fear and anxiety, and you know, you're depressed. That you have all of these different things going on, you cannot communicate any of it. Well, I in the past I've not been able to, yeah. You know, even though I thought I had lots of awareness because I'd done lots of therapies and seen psychiatrists and med, you know, feeling like I had a a good handle on it, but you actually know very little, and it's not until you're in it that you realise how hard it is to get out of a yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

Well it's another spiral, isn't it? Like the sh shame split you're just saying, the shame spiral like you you you you can't move or you yeah. It's it's weird weird to explain. I guess if you're listening to this, you probably have an idea, and you know, but like you can't you can't move, you can't bring yourself to do something. You can't, you know, you don't have that, it just doesn't exist, and then you hate yourself for not being able to do it. Yeah. Which and then that sort of like builds over time and gets worse and gets worse, and that's like that sort of shame spiral again, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yeah, and it's like you know, people who've never experienced it. Like when I was in that last one, my ex-partner's like, get out for a walk, go to this class, go and I'm like, fucking no, Jones. No, none of that's happening. Like, yeah, yeah. And it's like, oh do this, do this, what is it, the parasympathetic nervous system meditation, yeah, do an ADHD meditation to settle your mind, and I'm just like, fucking none of that is gonna work. Nope. You know, and it's it's hard to explain because the the answers are easy, but when you're in it, you just can't bring yourself to do it.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Yeah, it's it's huge. It's all it's just all-encompassing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Yeah. And like as you said, it does become your identity very quickly. And then you move into that drama triangle where you become the victim.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

You know, that's what happens to me anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I try not to live in the victim mode, but when I'm in that deep freeze, shut down, disassociation.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Yeah, you are a victim.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

In your mind, not a survivor.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

Yeah. Yeah, I know. I I've when was Can you remember any specific moments?

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Well, yeah, going into treatment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was the last biggest biggest one, yeah. It was just like I just couldn't get out of the freeze, you know, I couldn't work. I lost my relationship because of it. I lost my work clients and I couldn't work for my my mate who I was contracting for, couldn't look after my son, couldn't function, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, you know, and I just lost touch with reality ultimately. And yeah, I had to surrender. Spent three and a half months in a facility getting back to my baseline to come home. So I would I would say that, and I think it's affected a lot of my work, you know. I've probably not achieved what I probably could have because I just get, you know, executive dysfunction a lot of the time. And I I I think it's hard, you know, like that executive dysfunction shows up in my relationships. It'd be like ex-partners would be like, why is it always me organising things today? Why why can't you just pick something to do today, you know? And I'd just be like, I'll do whatever I don't. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. But obviously that's not helpful in a relationship.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

What do you fancy for doing a whatever?

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

Where do you want to go today? There's just no caring at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's it's it's interesting how like how that's you know, I mean, and this is why we kind of do the podcast, isn't it? Is because they're all so woven together in these cases, aren't they? Like how that and depression overlap and have similar symptoms and exaggerate one another, yeah, you know, and and and how addiction comes in with that. Yeah. And trauma trauma symptoms at all. Yeah, neurodivergence, yeah, it's it's like it's so intertwined.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

And I think even though the the the the medical or whatever the scientific side of things is more advanced, there's still very little we actually know. Like I think when I went into treatment, they wouldn't re-assess me for labels or diagnosis because they basically said like trauma is clouding everything. Yeah. So it doesn't matter, you can be assessed again, but doesn't matter what the outcome is because you've triggered by trauma. Yeah. I had to do that trauma programme.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

Yeah, and that and yeah, so on picking everything you've got to prioritize, yeah, and then you sort of get some good work through one, yeah, and then maybe you kind of have to transition when you realise that that other one's now holding you back.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Yeah, yeah. And that's when I come home and I was in a more stable place. I had that new psychiatric assessment, yeah. Which come back with all the same stuff, but you know, at least at least I knew it was accurate. Yeah, by having that independently done by someone else. Yeah. But yeah, I think that for me, that was that that last one was the biggest and most catastrophic freeze episode that I'm still recovering from. You know, I still feel disconnected a lot of the time. I feel numb and empty. Yeah, I don't feel a lot. And I think you know, I listened to Dopamine Nation, the audiobook, and I think my brain, from all of the drug abuse and alcohol abuse, my brain is stuck in dopamine deficit. Yeah, 100%. See me. The only way to get that back is to you in treatment, they said I have to accept the damage that I've done. Yeah. And it might never come back. Or you can commit to recovery and living in hope that one day you get some of this back.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Yeah, because dopamine deficit and ADHD amplifies the freeze, doesn't it? Yeah. You know, especially encompassed with childhood trauma. Yeah. You know, you just can't generate that push to move. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. You were you touched on the polyvagal system then a minute ago. To just a little explanation of what that is. You yeah, you got it. Yeah, because I've I I mean personally, I you know, since coming into recovery, it's the first time I've I've ever heard of it. Funnily enough, we were on a course, weren't we, a couple of months ago, a sober companion course, and there was a lady there who had uh quite an interesting take on how to treat.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

How to map how to how to nourish your polyvagos.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

I do I don't think we'll we'll we'll say it on here, but it involved some kind of stimulation of an orifice of the body, didn't it?

SPEAKER_01 35:17

And uh and we you know, that works. Yeah. But that that's that that's the Well from what Google tells you. Yeah. Oh right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Oh, I wasn't sure if she was joking or not. Yeah. So it is a legit. Oh, is it?

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah, okay. Okay. Well, I was intrigued. I looked it up.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Oh, okay. Well, tell us more then. Uh maybe.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Well I do want to say the wrong thing now. Yeah, it's basically like massaging that your your illness of some kind, isn't it? And just it does bring that relaxation of your polyvagal nervous system.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Yeah, because the the so the the the vagal nervous system is the sorry vagus nerve is what is thought to connect your head to your body and your organs. So that yeah, it sounds like it makes sense. So like the it's a the thing is it is a theory. It's not sort of like a medically recognised thing per se, but it is used by a lot of trauma techniques. So I personally from from the research I've done on it and the work I've done with it, I think it is definitely a thing. Whether medicine's just not caught up yet. I'll let you decide for yourself. So the polyvagal system is how the nervous system responds to safety versus danger. It's based on the vagus nerve and its different pathways, and the brain constantly scanning for safety, so neurosception. There's thought to be three states of the nervous system. So the ventral vagal, uh, which is your safe and social, so calm, connected, present, able to think clearly and engage. This is your optimal functioning stage, and then so it's like a traffic light system, so that would be green. Amber is the sympathetic, which was where the fight or flight comes from. So anxiety, stress, urgency, increased energy and alertness. Uh it's that drive to act. Kenos. Yeah, yeah. That fix it, escape, fight, flight, you know, that sort of those, those, those sensations. And then there's dorsal vehicle, which is the shutdown, which is the low energy, the numbness, withdrawal, disconnection, feeling checked out, and the body slows down to conserve energy, so it's protecting.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Yeah, and that the dorsal free, you know, it says in the notes that we've got freeze is linked to the dorsal vagal shutdown, the you know, and that triggers numbness and immobilization. Chronic activation of this pathway is linked to chronic pain, fatigue, and brain fog. Yeah, which you know, we both suffer from chronic pain, and that, you know, constantly feeling tired, like your brain can't process anything. Yep. That is that is something that's hard to articulate to people as well, I find.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

Yeah, and this this is one of the the biggest things that I've been trying to figure out for the longest, I think, in my life, is chronic pain, like what you just listed there, chronic pain, fatigue, and brain fog, those three things I've not been able to figure out. I've had chronic pain for 10 years now. I struggle with brain fog massively and chronic fatigue. You know, I I wake up more tired than when I go to sleep and have done forever.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Yeah, same. No, no, well, it comes and goes, but it's definitely like I feel more fatigued than the average human a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_03 39:10

Yeah, you know, that's who's that singer who's got always tired tattooed on his face, Jason Donovan. Jason Donovan.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

No, he's like some new age someone, but yeah. Tom Jones. Oh God. So I mean, the body keeps a record of every time it it it froze and the threat wasn't resolved.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah, and I I think if for anyone wanting to read up on that, the body keeps score is a very good book to give you more insight into that. Gabor Mate. That's the other guy. Oh, is it? Oh yeah. I can't remember his name. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

Yeah. Yes. But it's a very interesting book. Yeah, that's a brain-body connection book. Yeah, and Gabo Mate has one as well, doesn't he? Yeah. Which is called something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which we'll link in the in the notes as well. We'll put all of them in there. They're all they're all incredible. The the the stuff you read in those books is it is incredible, isn't it? That like m modern science still refuses to teach a lot of a lot of this stuff, even though that it is proven by various studies.

SPEAKER_07 40:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

The brain body link. I think the good thing is as well, though, it's it's actual experiences of Clark, it's lived experience that they discuss from their own research, which is kind of the podcast. You know, it's kind of you know, we've got certain lived experiences that we we're happy to talk about.

SPEAKER_07 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

And I think when you when you can see it through lived experience and actual people, you could there's more, you see the similarities more, yeah, and you can relate to it more. And you know, hear hearing other people share and their reactions to things, you can understand yourself more, I think.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

The human connection.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Yeah. The opposite of addiction.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

Yeah, totally. Talking of addiction, freeze and addiction, they you know I'm certainly guilty of using substances to feel something and or to not feel something. And that's a sign of a nervous system that's stuck in this sort of shutdown, you know, con like in you know, uh an extreme version of it, you know, where it's not I'm not just dipped into it, you know, I'm kind of having to use substances or people, places, things, as we say, or whatever, to come in or out of that.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

And then it's yeah, it's addiction or other subs, you know, do you use in them destructively to most of the time for me because they don't have that many emotions, it was always to feel something.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

And I would drink, you know, to socialise to get out, you know, to escape that freeze and the numbness and disassociation.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Yeah, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

But you know, if I was having a bad day, I'd also just go out and drink to oblivion to feel nothing.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

So yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Do you think your chronic pain is like your body holding on to what that freeze never let out?

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Uh yeah, I do I do. And you know, there's pain constantly in my back. Not even where the main injuries are, like in my shoulders, like my right shoulder, no matter how much I stretch it, no matter how many massages or how much acupuncture, there's a constant pain in my back, muscular. It's like nothing can ever just get to it, it's just there. And I think one of one of the things that we did in treatment in Thailand is it's called trauma release exercise. Okay. And there's a series of movements that release trauma from your body, and you do them in a sequence. And the last one is you lay on your back and you put your feet the in the facilitator will put your feet in a certain position, and your your legs either start to go or not, but it's all of the trauma releasing out of your body.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

You know, but the the first the first time I went in, I was like fresh into treatment off the plane. Very insane still. And I laid down, my body shook like it was in an earthquake. It was like fucking unbelievable. Then you just feel like grounded and

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Yeah, incredible thing, really. Try and find some kind of con con put in the show notes about that as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. I like that. I um the carrying on with the brain body sort of thing. I've I never I never used to get behind it. In fact, I'd be kind of the opposite, really. I I didn't believe it years ago. It's only since coming to recur well no, it's not. It's since being in chronic pain that I sort of you know, I I had the idea is like well, I mean, look at some running out of idea running out of options as to what is causing this. So sort of like Yeah. But I I had in 2000 and when would it have been? 2016, I think was my first one, I had pericarditis attack. What's that? So the pericardium is the sac that's around your heart, like the membrane, and pericarditis is when that gets inflamed and squeezes your heart. So the symptoms of it are similar to like a heart attack.

SPEAKER_05 45:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

So you get like neck pain, you can have arm pain, chest pain, and then obviously you can feel your heart being constricted, so you get like this constricted heartbeat, which is horrible. Like when your heart beats, it's kind of like painful. Yeah. And I was I was going through a lot at the time, but like this is like way pre-recovery, you know, way pre-this is when I'm just fully in the middle, just trying to try to r ride out every day. And I was I was getting stressed. I was very, very stressed. I'd had so much responsibility put onto me, so much, you know, just just way way more than I could cope with. And I was just taking more and more on, just and I was just like, just until I can get to that, just until I can get to there, just and then and then I'll get a break, and then but it never the break never came. Sort of like over a year, and I start it started as in in my shoulder, you know, like your trap, is it, you know, yeah, like this ache, and my my heartbeat was in my throat. And I won't I won't say what it was I was doing at the time because I'm probably not allowed, but so so effectively, you know, that thing that I was waiting for, that thing that I was waiting for, and and I genuinely think this was my body forcing me to stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was I was too much, you know, I I wasn't eating, I wasn't, I was just I was hanging on like one month's time. I'm gonna get to go away on the deployment, and then and it and it just brought me to my knees. I ended up getting taken out in an ambulance. They thought I was having a heart attack, and and then that they explained to me what it was. I got taken out of that situation at work and it killed it like that. Yeah, and I felt I just felt all that weight come off me, and I felt my I've just felt myself get better. Yeah, yeah. And that was the first time where I was like, ah, yeah. You know, that's that's definitely connected. Yeah, yeah. That's that's that's a that was a real time.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

And then after that I had it a couple of times in similar sort of Do you think that's the biggest, you know, where you felt it most situations like that in the body?

SPEAKER_03 47:24

Yeah, yeah, defin definitely. Well that so my my chronic pain that I live with, you know, still pretty much undiagnosed. I've had sort of the diagnosis I that I have for it, because you know, it what it wasn't like you yourself, you know, I wasn't in a in a catastrophic in accident or whatever. Yeah, it sort of just came on, but I was going through a lot of body, you know, I was in an environment where your body got fairly beaten up quite a lot. My so the you know, the the the there's like a thought to be a cause of it and all this sort of thing, but there's no you know, I've gone through all of the treatments of everything and it hasn't gone away. And I'm you know, I'm w I'm I am beginning to wonder if that is maybe what this is. Yeah, yeah. Maybe I use it in in you know my story as part of what brought me to recovery, the chronic pain. Whether you know, maybe maybe it was part of my body forcing me into it, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 48:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:26

Not you know, literally into recovery, but forcing me into changing something, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Yeah, yeah, and it's like it's a it's hard to understand, I guess. Like what you said, like you know, all of the things you were feeling before, you couldn't really under link it all together until you've come into recovery. Yeah, but when you don't have any understanding or till someone tells you what's actually going on, you're just like, oh, everyone's like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, your head's in the sand, you're like, everyone's having a hard time. Yeah, you just have to do your best you can. Yeah. But yeah, I I I think one other thing that came for me while I was spiralling in that on the way to treatment, I had a day where I had to take my son to school and I woke up in the morning. I couldn't lift my arm, like pains through my chest and around my back. Couldn't I thought I was having a stroke? And uh I couldn't I couldn't lift my arm to the steering wheel to drive him to school, and I had to ring my ex-partner to come and drive us to school, and she drove me to hospital, and they were just like, we don't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_05 49:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Go give me some morphine and some tramadol, sent me back. But like the the result of that is that my arm, my arm, my right armpit's been numb ever since. Like there's no feeling under that. And there was no cause, no, like, yeah. No, they just said it's something to do with your long-term, you know, something one of your nerves has must be trapped or whatever. But it felt like I was having a stroke.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Yeah, you know. Well this yeah, it's it's it's insane, isn't it? This is what they tried saying to me. Maybe it's nerves, but it's like it's two different parts of my body. Yeah. That'd be a coincidence, and so some positivity. Yeah. Should we uh should we talk about how to how to deal with it, how to get out of it, how to recognise what it feels like, you know, this sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Yeah, and I guess what like what has worked for you. What do you think has worked for you?

SPEAKER_03 50:41

I don't know. So my default setting is to lean into a problem. It's not that. Um it's it's accepting that you know I can't I can't a a big part of it, I suppose, is just awareness, is just acknowledging that this is my body doing what it's doing, trying to keep me safe and and you know, which is a really strange thing for my brain to get ahead to for me to get my head round. But just as soon as I'm sort of accepting that, that's a huge part of it. Yeah. Just just just surrendering to it a little bit, just relaxing into it, accepting that that's what it is. It's not just me you know being broken and then just going really steady. Like for me, for me ideally personally, I kind of I kind of don't need to be alone. But I just it needs to be calm. Yeah. Yeah, I can't have the kids like bouncing all over me and dogs barking or whatever. I just need to sort of slowly start, you know, wrap myself up, get the mental side of it going, understand awareness, come back to life, have a bit of a stroll around. And sort of like almost like, you know, like a like a computer, you know. Yeah. Like well, not like modern like old computers, you know.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

The ones that you turn on by your big toe.

SPEAKER_03 52:17

Yeah, it's like flick the switch, but it doesn't come on. You know, like the fan starts up for a bit, and then a couple of lights flash and then they go off for a bit. Yeah. And it starts making some whirring noises. Yeah, for me it's small steps.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

The paper clip with the eyes comes on the screen. The Microsoft Guide. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

Yeah, so you know, the my body needs like this, these the signs, the signals that it's uh okay to come back to life, I think. Yes is is essentially it for me. What about you?

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah, I think you know, in the past, one of the things that I've always done is try to find a fix of why I'm not feeling. I would do all of these therapies and treatments and find all of these groups and classes and drugs, good or bad drugs, that people have said this can help, you know, and I'd literally do anything to try and fix it, but when it didn't work, it would be worse because I'd be spiraling again because it hasn't worked, wondering what's wrong with me. Yeah. I think since coming into recovery and learning about all of this more through my therapist and through treatment and my own research and psychiatrists, and you know through the meetings and people who who shared in recovery, I think it's kind of just listening to your body, having acceptance, you know, just doing the the right thing over and over again, as even when you don't want to do it. It's like some days post- I can't be asked going to the gym, but I force myself. Some days I don't want to eat eggs and potatoes because I'm a vegetarian, so carbs and protein, but it's like I have to eat it every day, yeah, you know, and it's doing all of those things that I know my body needs that usually I would never do. There's self-care and just hoping, living in hope, because I'm still in freeze, and you know, I guess there's it's something to uh it has to be acceptance with autism and neurodivergence, you know. Maybe freeze is my has always been my default state, yeah, and it's just accepting that and doing my best each day and trying to communicate, I guess, a lot of the stigma. I think one of the things that I've done is you know, I have a I have a very small circle of people who I entrust and speak to and support each other, and you know, I don't have loads of stuff going on now. My life's very quiet, and you know, I don't socialise a lot, but I think going to the meetings is that what stops me from isolating, you know, it's that connection and co-regulation rather than going to the gym, hanging out with my son, sitting in here non-stop and getting that social aspect. And I think that's been great for me this time around. Yeah. Because I'm more than happily just spend every minute of every day on my own.

SPEAKER_03 55:46

Yeah, because it's isolation that's dangerous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So EM EMDR, so my I I know you're a big advocate for EMDR therapy, as am I. My therapist has done so on the sort of like coming back online sort of mindset. EMDR is good for that, you know, and any other approaches that work with the body rather than just the mind are more effective for freeze, more so than just just the talk, because it's it's it's that it's the brain-body connection again, that vagal, that vagal stuff. So my therapist has uh, you know, I've done EMDR around this sort of stuff, which is good, but we've she's also got me to do yoga, yeah, which is good for it, because that takes you from the mind to the body.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Have you done the tapping?

SPEAKER_03 56:39

The face tapping, no.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

That's that's quite good as well.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Is it?

SPEAKER_01 56:43

Yeah, is that like TMJ stuff? It's it's just another web, yeah. It's real it's just somatic treatment, isn't it? And you focus or you talk about it and then you tap it out.

SPEAKER_03 56:54

Yeah, because I do I do tapping when I do EMDR, because I can't do it with my eyes because I'm a bit special. I I do the butterfly taps. Yeah, yeah. It's a similar humming. Yeah, similar thing. Yeah, and then do the polyvagal humming. Yeah. The the most uncomfortable thing just to do with two people in a room. Yeah. I'll do I'll do an example. You ready? Go for it. So it's sounds so weird, but uh yeah, so the the the the it's not a hum, it's more of the sigh in the back of the throat that that's stimulating the vagal nerve. So, you know, all all of those all of those things have worked for me. Um but the the the sort of textbook stuff for you know key principles are start with the body, warmth, comfort, and posture change, gentle movements, slow, physical actions, sensory grounding, touch, temperature, and sound, and then the co-regulation, like you were just saying, safe human presence as opposed to just any human presence.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Yeah, and I feel that's one of my biggest struggles is because I don't feel safe around 99% of the world.

SPEAKER_03 58:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And to lower it, lower your expectations, so like that that bite-size stuff, you know, all that sort of early day stuff we've done, but you know, focus on small manageable actions, and the small celebrating them, man.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Yeah, is one of the biggest things that I don't do. Yeah, anymore?

SPEAKER_03 58:43

No, that's that's about it, really. I mean, a good takeaway is just to note that you know they're they're automatic nervous system responses, you know, it's not you failing, yeah. It's not a weakness, you know, the goal is gradual regulation, you know, you're not gonna force, you can't you can't just smack yourself out of it.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

Yeah, and I think one of the big the biggest things that you know when you when you're in the rooms of the 12-step meeting, and there's a saying, the good thing about getting sober and clean is you get your feelings back, and the bad thing is you get your feelings back. Yeah, it doesn't kind of sit well with me because just because I'm sober and clean, the freeze hasn't gone away, you know. I don't get those feelings back. Maybe I will one day, but I don't right now, and it's like just keep doing the right things. Yeah, and it's what you said. Freeze isn't a character flaw, it's not laziness, it's not indifference, it's a nervous system that learned very early. That staying still was the safest thing it could do.

SPEAKER_03 59:47

Yeah, yeah, you don't need to force through it, it's gotta make it finally feel safe enough to yeah, yeah. What would what would you say to the version of you that was frozen and didn't know why if you could, if you could just appear, you know, when when you were back in those mind states, what would you what would be a good bit of wisdom? I don't really know because I still feel frozen a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

Yeah, fair one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, if I had the answers, you know, I guess it's keep doing your best, keep learning and keep trying to I guess it's just go easy on yourself, you know. A lot of the times it was always trying to fix or fill or understand, you know, trying to be normal. Yeah. Actually I don't have to be. Yeah. I can just be me. Yeah. What about you? Anything to say?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:42

Yeah, same mate. Yeah, just that sort of at the core of everything, really, is just that you're you're okay, you know. You don't have to fight to be this version that you think you have to be, you know, you're enough, all that sort of thing. Yeah. Just yeah, just relax. I think take a minute.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

Yeah. I think it's stripping your life back as well to feel safe. It's like living a simple life and not the pressure of more, yeah, more of society driven to more and more and more. It's like just doing what's best for you. A lot of people don't take any time for self-care. No, toxic society, mate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:27

Mate, that was that's that's been awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:30

That is enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:32

Yeah, I've I've I've taken a lot away from that. I've done a lot of processing on myself through that. Checking out? I'm checking out feeling feeling really good, actually. Feeling like that was a positive step forward in my life. And yeah, I think I'm I think I'm ready to take on the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Yeah. I'm starting to feel like the more we do, the less burnt out I am after doing it. Yeah. It's getting getting into a little rhythm with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. It's good. Same checking out. I'm gonna go to the gym. And looks like the sun's out.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

Sun's out, guns out.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

Yeah, that's it, man. Checking out, feeling grounded as I was at the beginning. And yeah, glad, glad we did this today. Yes, amen. Grateful to be doing it. Amen, brother.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:24

Alright, cool. We chatted briefly at the start about listeners and people all over the world. If anyone wants to get in contact, let us let us know you're real. Or if you get anything from this, please, please reach out, like, subscribe, all that sort of annoying stuff you hear on other podcasts. But yeah, most of all, we just we just love to hear hear hear from you guys, really. Yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:51

And the feedback that we have had from people has been great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Implement it. Yeah, technically.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause yeah, you know, we're figuring this out with you guys. Yeah. All right, brilliant. Well, yeah, I'll see you soon. Yeah, peace.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:19

More to take, more to chase, more to know, more to escape, more screams, more pills, more noise, more thrills.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:35

We wanted more. We lost ourselves. We paid it cost. The deeper with.