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No Rest for the Wired: Sleep, Trauma, CPTSD and the Exhaustion Nobody Talks About

• Toby & Rudy • Season 1 • Episode 11

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0:00 | 1:19:07

Everyone tells you to get more sleep. Nobody tells you what to do when your nervous system treats sleep like a threat.

In this episode of More, Toby and Rudy get honest about something that touches almost every person living with trauma, CPTSD, addiction or neurodivergence. And something that almost never gets a proper conversation. Not the tired version of sleep advice you've heard a hundred times. The real version. What it actually feels like when rest itself becomes the thing you can't have.

They dig into the science of why trauma hijacks sleep, what years of sleep debt genuinely does to your brain and your mental state, drawing on the research of neuroscientist Matthew Walker PhD and his landmark work Why We Sleep. And they get into why standard sleep hygiene advice completely misses the point for nervous systems shaped by trauma.

This is a raw, unfiltered conversation from two men with lived experience of Big T trauma, complex PTSD, addiction recovery, ADHD and chronic pain. No performance. No polish. Just honest talk about the nights, the nightmares, and what has slowly started to help.

What we get into:

The reason up to 90% of people with CPTSD experience significant sleep problems, and why it's a core symptom not a side effect. What Matthew Walker's research shows about sleep debt and what chronic deprivation actually does to your brain, your emotions and your decision making. Why less than 1% of people can genuinely function on six hours. How trauma nightmares work, why they keep replaying, and what the brain is trying to do when it drags you back there night after night. The ADHD sleep crisis, racing minds, delayed body clocks and why 67% of people with ADHD struggle to sleep. The chronic pain and sleep loop, how each one makes the other worse, and how substances became the answer for years until they stopped working. And what actually helps, including EMDR, somatic work, Imagery Rehearsal Therapy, breathwork and an honest conversation about sleep medication in recovery.

If you've ever dreaded going to bed, woken up more exhausted than when you closed your eyes, or spent years running on empty, this one is for you.

More is hosted by Toby Lerone and Rudy Youngblood, two men with lived experience of addiction, trauma, mental health and neurodiversity. Recorded in a single take. Unedited. Unfiltered.


LINKS:-

https://youtu.be/30VMIEmA114 - 54321 technique 


https://youtu.be/zq07gbFLCAs - box breathing in 5’s


https://youtu.be/k_2feptc-Bg - Matthew walker PHD on another podcast


source:%20The%20Mind%20Company https://share.google/QYY4TBrzhlnnSkjuA - Balance, guided meditation app


https://www.headspace.com/app - bedtime story’s for adults


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings_(film_series) - lord of the rings-watch it Rudy you weirdo haha



Keywords and Tags:

CPTSD, Complex PTSD, Trauma and Sleep, Sleep Deprivation, Mental Health, PTSD Nightmares, Trauma Recovery, Matthew Walker, Why We Sleep, Sleep Debt, ADHD and Sleep, Neurodivergent, Insomnia, Chronic Pain, Addiction Recovery, Men's Mental Health, Nervous System Regulation, Hypervigilance, Somatic Healing, EMDR, Sleep Disorders, Trauma Podcast, Lived Experience, Recovery Podcast, Sleep and Anxiety, Sleep and Depression, REM Sleep, Polyvagal Theory, More Podcast


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SPEAKER_02

We live in a world that never stops offering more. More to buy, more to scroll, more to numb, and more to escape. Until the wanting becomes normal and stopping feels impossible.

SPEAKER_03

And somehow, the harder we chase it, the more burnt out, anxious, addicted, and disconnected we become.

SPEAKER_02

This is more, a podcast hosted by people with lived experience of addiction, mental health issues, trauma, and neurodiversity. Where the pursuit of more led us to rock bottom and has since led us to finding alternative ways to live.

SPEAKER_03

Each week we have raw, honest conversations with each other and our guests, grounded in lived experience, about what the chase takes from us and what's possible when you stop running.

SPEAKER_02

Through these conversations, we hear a diverse collection of stories and experiences from those who have found an alternative way to exist in the world.

SPEAKER_03

These conversations are recorded in a single take with no editing. So what you hear is real and unfiltered. Some names and places may be changed in order to protect those sharing their stories. Welcome to more.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, sleep. Sleep episode. Sleep. Something we both struggle with. Another biggie. Another biggie. Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, a little check-in, mate. Yeah. Checking in. Feeling quite grounded at the minute. I think I think grounded, feeling quite resilient. And yeah, I think I'm in a good place overall. I've I can't remember if I shared on the last week. I've I've finished signed off with my therapist for the time being, which is amazing. Yeah. Yeah, so feeling feeling on the right track with everything. Nice. How are you doing? Checking in.

SPEAKER_02

Tired. God, I'm tired. I'm so tired. Yeah, but really, really grateful at the moment. I've got I'm really present. And I'm grateful for that. More so than I've ever been in my life. Which yeah, is grounding as well. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm very grounded and connected to myself at the moment, which is it's just feeling really good. A little bit more sleep, and I would be pretty dandy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. But what have you been up to, mate? Uh what have I been up to? I have just the usual stuff, man. Looking after myself. Doesn't really change these days. Looking after myself, hanging out with my son, trying to get this new business off the ground. Spent a lot of time talking to AI over the last few days. Becoming an AI inficiado. Just isolating, chatting, chatting, chatting to Claude. Doesn't sound very healthy. Hopefully, it's not a long-term thing. Just while I'm trying to teach myself and learn some things on how to, you know, keep moving forward with this juggernaut in the world that we can't seem to ignore. Yeah. But yeah, I think other than that, mate, just looking after myself. There's not a lot really going on. Don't have a lot of spare cheddar at the minute. Yeah. So just doing what I need to do. And as you said, I think I said the other day, I'm feeling more present than I have and connected. I've literally coffee, one coffee a day is my only vice at the minute. I've got rid of porn, sex, substances, nicotine. There's a little bit of sugar in there, but you know, pretty much present. Don't have social media, don't really watch YouTube unless I'm looking for a tutorial. Yeah. Or some classic football highlight. Just fully in the AI. Yeah, yeah. That's my biggest distraction.

SPEAKER_02

That's that's amazing though, mate, isn't it? You know, yeah. That yeah. God. How rare do you think that is now? Yeah. Nowadays.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

What what have you binge up to? Anything exciting? Yeah, exciting, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think so. Just a bit of work. Yeah, not not a huge amount. It's been kind of one of those weeks, really.

SPEAKER_02

Just yeah, I've been doing a bit of work, been getting home, just enjoying time with the kids. Yeah, not a huge amount to report. Or or or actually just for context, so before we record this, I go to the coffee shop and grab some coffees. Or I've started doing that for us. I've now been obviously accepted as a local because I went in today and two coffees and a almond uh what is it, croissant, yeah, pan of chocolate? Six quid. Six quid. Isn't that a matana?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I was like, guys, well, coffee's like four quid.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I got two coffee. And I I said, you know, because I'm honest now, I was like, oh, I don't think you've charged me enough.

SPEAKER_00

And she was like, oh no, no, you come in there all the time.

SPEAKER_01

Did you like the meal deal thing or whatever? Oh yeah. And I was like, oh, that's quite nice. What a church been accepted into the local community. Wicked.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So yeah, yeah, you know, just stuff like that. I've I've fixed my van three times. Feel like all you do is think.

SPEAKER_05

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02

It's like a subscription. Yeah. Honestly, like every week something breaks. Rear brake pads and then gearbox service and then an MOT. Yeah, God, that thing.

SPEAKER_05

But yeah, that's that's just well, I squashed my car last week as well. Oh yeah, you prying in a car park. The side of it. My new driver. Although I've been driving, just say a new driver since 2020. It's my first car still. Yeah. I've had it for quite a long time, really. Yeah. That's the first time I've ever done that. That's good. Yeah, yeah. But I guess it's it was inevitable. Hasn't done much damage. It's just squashed. Just squashed some shit.

SPEAKER_02

We'll see if we can knock it out. Last episode was I can't remember. What was that? Oh, freeze. The freeze response. Yeah. Really good. I've had loads of good feedback about that. If anyone out there's listened to it, and yeah, we'd love to hear more feedback on it. Yeah, good, bad, positive, negative, whatever. Just uh but yeah, I've had like direct directly helping people. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_05

Which is what it's what's all about, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the you know, lived experience help helps us helps us to you know share share that so people can relate. Yeah. And not I I think that's if we're helping people, then that's amazing, isn't it? It's part of why we're doing it.

SPEAKER_02

Definitely, yeah. So sort of regular listeners will have started piecing this together by now. And if you're listening for the first time, we we explore all the different sort of categories that we talk about in our intro, addiction, neurodiversity, mental health, trauma, trauma, yeah, and and and how that not just to them in their own cases, the interlinking issues that they present and and how and how they've affected us and such like and and a huge one for both of us that kind of is affected by all of those categories and therefore then affects all those categories is sleep or the lack of. Yeah. And that's why, yeah, today we've decided to get into get into all things sleep.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm excited to get into it. Yeah. And share, share how the last few years, like this as I as I said, I've just finished with my therapist. We shared in a couple of episodes ago that my sleep is starting to drop into a normal pattern, but it's it's not that straightforward, you know. There's lots to talk about, isn't it? And as as your ongoing struggles with that, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. And it's good to chat about it.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm actually going for tomorrow. I'm going for a sleep study. I am as there. Yeah, so it starts with so I'm it's it's done at the the GP surgery. I mean, they my doctor just said to me on the phone, he's like, Yeah, just come on in and we'll and we'll do an overnight sleep study on you. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, cool. And then I hung up the phone and was like, God, I need a sleeping bag, or is it there? Or so I don't actually know what's happening, but I presume they're gonna give me some monitoring equipment for me to take away rather than actually stay there.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, but the one that the one that I I had on when I was in treatment, and I was taken to a hospital and I just had a room, and I I spent the first six hours just sat in silence waiting for someone to come and tell me what was gonna happen, and then just it literally took like two and a half hours to put all of these hundreds of monitors and wires around my body and my head and my hair, yeah, um all over my face, yeah, you know, took hours.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm presuming what I do leads to that, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and then they're like, you've got all these hundreds of things, like, yeah, just get your head down, yeah, get yourself to sleep. But it is like the insight that I got from it was made sense to why I wasn't sleeping, and I guess hopefully you get some of the same insight. Yeah, what came back was essentially that I don't ever get REM when I'm and my mind was stuck in hyper arousal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So sleep was always gonna be tricky, but like and ultimately what came from mine was that they said you you just naturally have to wait until your brain drops out of that triggered state, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Which it has done the last couple of months, which is because that's your nervous system constantly scanning for threats, even when you're yeah, yeah, I guess so.

SPEAKER_05

And I guess like when you're triggered phone trauma, I guess that's go back to that child like state internally as well, don't you? It's probably that childhood brain just in hypervigilance nonstop. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, mate, that's exciting now. I'm glad it sounds like you can get some answers.

SPEAKER_02

I looked into it ages ago because you know, like I've always struggled with sleep, and I'm I'm so glad you know we're doing this episode on this as well, because you can get misdiagnosed for quite a lot with through the through the doctors with regards to sleep, from what I've noticed. They've given me some very addictive sleeping tablets, yeah. They've given me some non-addictive sleeping tablets, you know, they've they've done you know, they've done sort of like classic modern medicine, not fixing the cause, kind of like treating the symptoms, I suppose. Putting a blaster over it. Yeah, and there's such there's things like sleep apnea and and such like, which is kind of the way it's going for me in in their opinion, I think. Yeah. But I personally I think it's whether it's also or instead of all of the other things that we're gonna discuss today.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I I I I had part of that test that I had was the sleep apnea and uh because they were talking about shipping sleep machines to the treatment center and stuff, but then it turned out that I didn't have so hopefully you may find out because that can be a big impact as well if you have got sleep apnea.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a it's a long old road, and then yeah, got it fixed out your driving license and everything, doesn't it? Yeah. All right. Let's let's get into let's get into some stuff. We can do some facts and some chat. So what what what is sleep? You know, it's not it's not just it's not just resting, it's when your brain processes emotional memory and regulates fear. So for trauma survivors, that's where that processing goes wrong. Up to 90% of people with CPTSD experience sleep disturbances. It's it's not a side effect, it's a core symptom. Yeah. And this is what we're talking about before with like treating that with sleeping tablets does does not fix it.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and I I was taking when I went into treatment, I was taking so much medication that I needed to come off psychiatric medication that I was just like, I don't want any sleep medication. I'm taking too much, I don't even know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and so it becomes your whole your whole body just becomes regulated by just by getting tablets and things like you've got to just like come awake, go to sleep, do this, do that. Yeah, it's just it gets it's just too much. Yeah, yeah, we chatted about hypervigilance, you know, which is that you know, you constantly, which is like it's it's a PTSD symptom, isn't it? You know, that constantly scanning for danger.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, constantly, you know, the anxiety and feeling unsafe. I have that, I have that all the time, wherever I go. Yeah. And yeah, at night time, doesn't go away. And even though I'm not thinking actively about my past, like the minute I close my eyes, I'm living a different life. Yeah. Like I'm grounded in the dirt, but I'm I'm still in the past as soon as I've drift off to sleep.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I so the hypervigilance stuff, like an example for me, I can be you know, supposedly asleep, but like you, I don't go into REM sleep. If if my daughter gets out of bed, so our doors are opposite each other in the hallway, if she if she gets out of bed, I open my bedroom door before she gets to it. Yeah. So like her putting her feet on the floor wakes me up. I'm up, I'm out of bed, the doors open, she walks across the corridor to me. Yeah. And it's the same with my son. It's been exacerbated by a partner who doesn't wake up at all. Yeah. And then when you have kids, you know, it becomes you become dependent. The the the one who has to sort of like pick up the slack. But it is that my brain constantly scanning, one eye open, you know, and and a lot of that has come also for me from the military. You know, that is that PTSD constant scanning.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, just constantly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm I'm not I'm not asleep. Yeah. You know, I don't I I couldn't tell you the last time I was actually like, you know, when you like when you see people like properly knocked out.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Catching flies.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. I'm only like, you know, probably a finger click away from being back on my feet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Yeah. And most of the time I feel like that. Um, but like there comes once once, you know, when your body just needs it, you get the the odd good sleep. Yeah. Do you ever get that? And it's just like it goes on and on and on, and then you get one where you get a good few hours' rest.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I have this thing where I'm I'm I and all of this I'm still figuring out. At the moment, it seems to be the only time I can get that switch off is if I'm by myself in quite a quite a confined environment where there's no because like even mess, you know, OCD, like I I I can't sleep in a messy room, yeah, because my brain's like going on and on about stuff. So like I my van's got like a you know camper van type thing. If I'm in the van, I can sleep. Yeah, I know where everything is, yeah. I know everything, you know, I know how that is, I know that there's nothing that can change, you know. There can be noise outside, it doesn't bother me because I'm in I'm in a I'm in a literal metal, you know, container. Yeah. I am safe.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I and I I can relax and I know I'm not gonna get disturbed. Yeah. So I'm I'm not constantly hyper-vigilant about the kids, I'm not constantly hyper-vigilant about the stuff outside, you know, like where where you live and you know getting broken into or anything like that, you know, it just can't cuts out quite a lot of that noise for me. And that's when I get those like oh yeah, sleeps. But I still it's still I still wake up.

SPEAKER_05

I get I get I get what you mean about the uh the mess. Like some day some mornings if I get I'll do my readings and stuff in bed with a coffee, and then like at night, if I'm laid in bed, I can't get to sleep because I know the coffee mugs on the next to me from this morning, and I won't be able to settle until I put it down and trick it in the kitchen in the sink. And just like why, man. Yeah, cheers. Yeah, and I guess one thing with the sleep disturbance and having PTSD, which we've both been diagnosed with, you know, it's bi-directional, like trauma, trauma and triggers disrupt your sleep, but then poor sleep worsens your trauma symptoms and responses. Yeah, and then it becomes becomes a loop, a downward loop. And that's kind of what happened before on my route to treatment, yeah, as I was triggered and spiraling. That's where I am now, but I wasn't sleeping, I was going into psychosis and all kinds of things, yeah. And then I just lost touch with reality essentially. Yeah. Uh yeah, that and that's where you are at the minute.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I can I can feel myself, I'm on the verge of it. You know, I'm probably since the last episode we did, so I'm a week into probably averaging three hours, so that's sleep debt now. I can I can feel it. I'm I'm very accustomed to sleep debt, you know, just from repetitive nightmares through my life and stuff like that anyway, and being in the military and and having children. So, you know, I'm probably tolerant to more than most, maybe, but I can I'm at that point now where I'm you know, I I I know I need to start catching up.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Which, as we'll discuss, and then it does if it for for me when it gets to that, it feels like the world's just passing me by. I'm sort of disassociated, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get further and further.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, and like sleep debt isn't you know, and I say I've got to catch up. That doesn't exist. Yeah, yeah. You can't actually catch up, there's no, there's no such thing. But so what I need to do is then go because of like being autistic and you know, all of these things, like what you're saying about it, it's spiralling. Less sleep means you're more tired, which means you can't focus as much, which means you can't prioritize what you need to have as neurodivergent to make your days work better, burn out quicker, the masking's harder, and yeah, and you burn out and you spiral. All down. So when I say catch up, for me it's more like I just need to be like doing nothing. Yeah. That doing nothing which is so hard in this society.

SPEAKER_05

And then do you do you think when it is hard in this is in a society where it's just a million miles an hour, more, more, more, more, more.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Ever everything in our society is designed to keep you awake.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. The attention economy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's just to keep you, you know, your attention on something somewhere more, finding this, doing that. Yeah. Scrot. It's, you know, let's be real, a lot of it is technology, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Yeah, because it's even like I know you listen to a lot of podcasts. Yeah. But there's been times where I'll put a podcast on or an audiobook, but then it's like that's a cobbling mechanism as well to get to sleep. Yeah. It's like just consuming more and more stuff. Yeah. It's like it's never ending, isn't it? I don't know. Do you do you do that in the night if you can't sleep?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I I listen to stuff most nights. I find it it it works well for me. Yeah. Because I'm so in my imagination, because as in my imagination is so vivid, probably after years of living in my imagination. If if I'm struggling to sleep, if I put on it's an audio book I listen to, so a story rather than a podcast most of the time. My mind creates the picture that's being talked about and the storyline and the story and everything. So then, and then that enables, and you know, I actually get that one-track mind then. Yeah, yeah. It's very rare for me. That is when I Arthur Conan Doyle, you know, that bloke hadn't been born. You know, I don't know if I'd ever have slept really, but Stephen Fry reading Arthur Conan Doyle's complete works of Sherlock Holmes has has saved my life many a time because he's so descriptive as well in his writing, you know. It like the picture appears in my head, and I'm and and and I and I'm fully imagining that. Yeah, you know, those other conversations from six years ago that I'm arguing with about in my head and all those other things that are bouncing around kind of take a back seat. Yeah. So it works for me. Do you music?

SPEAKER_05

I I usually mean music, music.

SPEAKER_02

Guided meditations are great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

I do I do I do I do well, I used to use b uh an app called Balance.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

With the bedtime meditations. But I've forgotten I've been meditating a lot, I can do it without the guided now. Yeah, no. Not always. And so I tend to try that's that's what I do at bedtime, is try to focus focus my mind on my breathing, on meditating. Um you know, I do the five, four, three, two, one, sense check meditation. Yeah. And then I try and get this to to close off the ADHD mind. I need I need to get out of get out of the the ADHD loop from the day, yeah. In order for my mind to shut down. It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't work. As I said, uh I'm sleeping better, but getting to sleep, I'm trying not to use any audio at the minute, trying to be more present, you know. I'm trying not to listen to music at bedtime, or you know, I would often listen to like an Alan Watts talk or something where it's the same voice. I've told I'm from the Northeast. I used to listen to when I was in treatment through the night, I would listen to Bob Mortimer's audiobooks because he speaks in the same accent as me and he's got a relaxing voice, yeah, and I just needed that comfort. But I think at the minute I'm trying to to do it without you know, yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_02

Take the crutch out, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's nice, yeah. And that's well, that's the that's the aim, isn't it? With all of everything we're doing is eventually to do it autonomously. Autonomously, yeah, automatically. Yeah, but yeah, you've got to train yourself.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. That's good that you're what time what does what do you you know, bedtime? Is it an audio book every night?

SPEAKER_00

Last night.

SPEAKER_02

No, I didn't last night.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, I d I don't I don't rely on it. Yeah. But I've just noticed through, you know, like I say, I I enjoy those books, so I enjoy listening to them.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I get a nicer quality of sleep off them. There was a study done by a lady, I wish I had her name, I haven't got it. You got it here. There's uh no, I can't remember. Yeah years ago. I think it was in like the the you know, straight facts. I think I'll put it in the show notes, and off I'll dig it out, but basically that the there was there was studies done into this, that, and the other. Anyway, this lady started a company that were doing kind of like a meditative morning routine, and again, I can't remember the name of it. They they they were assessing their data and they found that there was loads of listeners at night time, and they decided that essentially, or someone presumably in their company, was like, Well, at what point because all children enjoy a bedtime story, all kids fall asleep having a bedtime story. Yeah, at what point does that stop? And essentially they figured that it doesn't, so they they kind of changed their business into a sleep story thing, and I can't remember the name of it, I will put it in the notes. It's brilliant, and there's there's all kinds of famous people on there now reading all kinds of books, their books, other books, and whatever. So it's like adult storytime stuff, and basically the therapeutic value of like what I do with the the you know, but it's kind of like a guided meditation, isn't it? Is projecting that mental image and taking your brain away from itself so it can concentrate on one thing instead of all of the other stuff that it's just self-imposing. Yeah, yeah. So that so there's there's there's loads of weight behind the the bedtime story thing, but essentially the the the thing not to do by all accounts is to have over stimulating content, yeah. So their their stuff's all aimed at yeah therapeutic stuff rather than you know uh no horror horror I know what you did last summer, yeah, yeah, like yeah, that sort of like true crime, yeah, yeah, which is weird because true true crime gets quite a lot of people off, doesn't it? But I don't know what it does subconsciously, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and then yeah, so if if anyone wants to know wants to do a deep dive into sleep, everything we're gonna talk about here today is you know researched and and stuff and it's relevant for our podcast. If anyone wants to do a deep dive on sleep itself, there is a guy you may or may not have heard of, Matthew Walker, PhD. He wrote the book Why We Sleep. I read that four or five years ago. It's a wicked book, well worth a read. He there's a lot of so he is essentially he's a professor of neuroscience and psychology at the University of Berkeley, California. He is basically the world-renowned expert on sleep and all things sleep. And he he covers so much. That book's brilliant, and there's an audiobook, yeah, and he reads it himself. He keeps the he keeps the lingo to like you know a minimum so it's understandable, and he puts it into perspective and he goes through loads of stuff. He's he's an absolute wizard of sleep, and we've drawn from some facts from from his stuff for this show, haven't we? Yeah, because he is the ultimate authority, essentially. Yeah, so I'll again I'll put his details in the show notes if you if you want to go deeper with it.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. Should we should we read read and relate? Yeah, go on. So, you know, the I guess one of the things that stands out is the percentage of people who can genuinely survive on six hours or less without impairment is essentially zero, less than one percent. And the rest of us are just used to feeling that way.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, so he he he works on the or the the theory, you know, the eight-hour sleep thing. So his is seven to nine, yeah. And you'll you'll you'll have to figure out what's right for you in that seven to nine bracket, but under seven is detrimental to your health, yeah. Yeah, and over nine, you know, it's probably it's probably less detrimental to your health, but it's it's not not as required. Yeah. Ten days of six hours sleep. So let's say for you, seven hours sleep is good. So having ten days in a row of six hours sleep gives you the same cognitive impairment as one 24-hour session without sleep. Yeah. And you lose the ability to accurately assess your own deterioration through the neurochemicals and everything that happened.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, you can't see it. Like that's what happened from my from my experience. Builds up. Yeah, as I went, I just lost touch with reality, and that's when I you know, I've the only way that I could see it ending was to end my life. Yeah, and it's just like it is it is a it's quick, quick to spiral, especially when you're triggered with with the trauma response and you know depression. I wasn't I wasn't actually using, so you know, the I think the my addictions were to those negative thoughts and the loss of you know the trauma, yeah, internally. You know, I wasn't really it's pretty crazy to see. And then looking, even just reading that, like the 10 days of six hours sleep, like how many of those do six days of six hours have you had or less?

SPEAKER_02

It's just like I reckon I'm on I'm averaging free, you know. Yeah, and I've I've been there as well. That I th you know when I come into recovery, that that is one big slice of the cake that that was going on for me. Yeah, it's crazy. And interestingly, just quick side note, so you can't so sleep debt you can't repay. I think I said that before. Yeah. But what you can do, which is only kind of recently discovered, again, through some other trials, is you can sleep bank. So if you've got a sleep deprivation that you know of coming up, a test, maybe, which means you won't sleep the night before, long traveling sort of scenario, or you know, you're an an athlete and you've got like a a big a theatrical, you've got a show, anything like that where you know you're gonna have an impaired night's sleep, you can sleep bank an extra night's sleep in the build-ups of the reverse of it. Yeah, and that has been scientifically proven to to work. So you can't you can't get it in lieu, but you can preempt it. Yeah. It's quite interesting, I thought.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it's it's just looking at this other stuff, mate. It's harrowing. It's basically just what happened to me, essentially, yeah. Over between 2023 and going into when I went into treatment in June 2024. Brain scans show sleep deprivation, makes the brain swing to both emotional extremes. Hypersensitivity to pleasure drives risk taking and addiction, and then extreme negative emotions drive depression and suicidal thinking. For people already managing trauma and addiction, this isn't academic.

SPEAKER_02

And then it's do you can you just read that again? Because that is huge.

SPEAKER_05

The whole thing, yeah. Uh, it's brain scans for sleep deprivation, makes the brain swing to both emotional extremes, hypersensitivity to pleasure drives risk taking and addiction, and extreme negative emotions drive depression and suicidal thinking. For people managing trauma and addiction, this isn't academic. And I think underneath, mate, that next as someone who's you know isolating already because they're manically depressed, you know, sleep deprivation triggers a loneliness phenotype. Sleep-deprived people avoid social interaction or are in turn shunned by others, the exhaust person pushes people away, people leave, the isolation deepens, smoke where I went, man. Yeah, it's sleep is so important. Scary, isn't it? Just reading reading that back and relating it to what happened to me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's it's all there in black and white, isn't it? Yeah. And and and what's amazing is you know, people are quite quick to come up and tell you, you know, oh, I've been it's it's commonplace to be like, oh, I I've I've given up smoking, I haven't smoked for so long or whatever. But no one come up to you and be like, mate, I've got like four nights in a row of eight hours sleep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, isn't isn't that isn't that strange? But yet, like, you know, when we talk about priorities and what a third of your life is sleep, yeah, yeah. And it is the time when your brain repairs and you recover. No one speaks about it. It's just it's it's ups it's obscene. I think there's a lot of again this society, you know, if you're if you're boasting about how much sleep you have, it's kind of a negative, isn't it? It's kind of like, well, yeah, what what are you shouldn't you be doing something?

SPEAKER_05

But then as a as in my early using days, I used to boast about how much sleep I haven't had. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Staying awake for three, four, five days. Definitely partying and using. Yeah, and everyone's like, Oh, you legend. Yeah, yeah. Wow, how do you what your stamina?

SPEAKER_02

And you just and you're literally killing yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Literally taking well, what does that quote say? The shorter your sleep, the shorter your lifespan.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's as it is as simple as that, and it it usually forms in like you know, like heart and other organ uh problems because you know they're not getting they're not the you know, these things that are working all day, yeah, and being flooded with all these hormones to keep them going, keep you going, yeah, they're not getting that break, they're not getting that rest at night, you know. Yeah, um, and you know, you're effectively burning yourself out a lot quicker.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and in most of my l my lear tens and twenties, man, I was like probably sleeping three or four nights a week, most weeks, and the rest are just wider work using.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So our REM sleep, I'll just really quickly go over in case anyone listening doesn't sort of understand. So there's three levels of non-REM, we're doing this from memory, and then one level of REM. And what a healthy sleep pattern should be is you kind of go from you spend 10 minutes in in one non-REM, and then you spend about 20 minutes in the next level two REM, and then about half an hour in the next level of non-REM, and that's when you get those big long brain waves, and that's when you're in that deep sleep, and then you go into REM sleep, which is where recovery's done, and whatever. And then what happens is you then go back up and you come back down, and you should sort of do one of those spikes essentially. I think it's around 90 minutes, yeah. 90 minute interval, and then that's where these like I think they call it because like circadian rhythm, they call them circadium clocks, like alarm clocks, and and it there's bot as bollocks because you it's basically a 90-minute timer and you go to sleep, and then it it works out when the best 90 minutes is to wake you up. But like we said before, seven hours to nine hours, yeah, that's quite a big window. Yeah. So if someone's doing, you know, a hundred and 120-minute circadian rhythm arises, you know, you it's not gonna wake you up at the right time anyway. Anyway, I won't uh go on that. But uh REM sleep is the only time that the brain is completely free of neuroadrenaline. So in the body we have adrenaline and in the brain you have neuroadrenaline. This is the anxiety triggering chemical. So no REM means no chemical break from anxiety ever. So yeah, which is crazy, isn't it? Which is where the PTSD picture comes from. And the loop. Do you want to talk about that? And your because you're actually on prepanolin?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, Prozison. Yeah, so I actually take um even though I'm feeling great, you know, those I still live the same PTSD nightmares every single night of my life. And well, most nights. It's but when I'm triggered, it's prominent every night, and it's like I'm living, you know, I'm living a double life. It's like even the last few weeks, some nights I'm so sweaty and hungry that I have to get up in the night and eat, and you know, and then I don't really remember what it is. It's always recurring, it's always, you know, people getting chased, violence, sex, using people from my childhood, always the same, it's always the same nightmares. And yeah, yeah, I think what one thing when I was in treatment that after the sleep study I had done the I seen a psychiatrist, and he he suggested I try a blood, it's a alpha blocker, a blood pressure tablet called Prozacin. Yeah, and he said, you know, it's not a sleep medication, it's non-addictive, doesn't interact with your other psychiatric medications. And do you want to give it a go? And I was like, meh, I hadn't slept in nine months, probably at that stage, probably. And so I was like, okay, he sent me the study, I read it, and then the first night I took it, I slept, you know, and I was like, fucking hell, this is amazing. Yeah, and but what it does, it's it doesn't, you know. I guess that first night, I guess it's the same with any drug you get that amazing, it's not like that every night, but it takes the edge off the nightmares and makes it more like a lucid dream, so it becomes more of a like a drama than a nightmare, and I guess that's kind of where it's so exhausting because it's you don't get that in the end, the end with a nightmare where you're soaking, you wake up panicking. It's more like yeah, dragged out into a three-part drama, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah and they and they stumbled across that drug accidentally in a American military veteran suffering with PTSD sort of trials, yeah. And they just just they they they did it by accident. And just for a bit of concept, context as that sort of why that's relevant. So you said before about neuroadrenaline and adrenaline. So what what supposedly happens in in the in the brain when you're asleep, like we said before, there's your neuroadrenaline goes to zero. So you your memories and thoughts and stuff you've learned throughout the day get processed at night without any sort of neurotocchemical sort of input. You know, you're not being protected basically by these by these chemicals. And you can process you can process the memories and process the thoughts. Now, when you've got PTSD, like we said before, it triggers neuroadrenaline. So you're trying to process, your brain is trying to process a traumatic incident or you know, whatever, yeah, but it can't because of the neuroadrenaline. So what would normally happen is this spiky sort of like memory comes into your brain, it files off all the corners of it, makes it nice and soft and gooey, and puts it in the back and you've processed it. But because of the neuroadrenaline, your brain doesn't do that, yeah. It doesn't get processed and it gets put back into sort of like you know, the front of your brain or whatever, you know, and then it comes back to you again to be like, okay, you haven't processed this, let's try and process it now. And that's why you get these reoccurring nightmares because it and and and and and that's the unresolved trauma. Yeah, so what that medication you do drops medically drops your neuro adrenaline, allowing your brain to begin to process it. Yeah, which is amazing, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's there's lots of other ways of of doing that through therapy. And such like that, but that's amazing that you can get that break when you need it from you know from uh from uh medication.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It is screwed, you know, and I think Did you did you know that to be considered a severe case for uh PTSD recurring nightmares you know for five a week? Yeah that's mad, isn't it? Yeah, that's mad because that's that's not a lot. I mean well in our case I would say, but yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I I think my doctor said he said if you're having more than three recurring nightmares a week, we need to sort of address issues for PTSD. I was like, oh well then that's a definite I'd love to have bloody three a week almost.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, that's crazy, isn't it? And then it's like a you know, after after that, every morning it's you just wake up exhausted, yeah, and you you're already in a triggered state to start the day. And I think that's when people who get good sleep don't realise that the advantage of operating and functioning on a daily basis. Yeah, it's just like on a completely different uh level. Yeah, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02

When there's a one question, you know, what what do your you know, what do your dreams or your nightmares look like and have they changed at all since coming into recovery and doing therapy and yeah, so trauma nightmares aren't random, they generally replay like the original threat, kind of exactly or symbolically, yeah, and then in REM sleep that's when that processing stuff we talked about happens. So I mean I I have a few areas of this thing, I've been getting into quite a lot of this lately. My and we've talked about it before, my sort of the recurring genre, I think, is this overbearing sort of character that is sort of just over me, belittling me, and you know, just crushing me. Like like in like Soul Sauron in Lord of the Rings, it's like this just silhouette of this, just like and it comes with all the I've never watched Lord of the Rings. What have you not? No, I read the book at school. Oh yeah, well it's the same as that. I can't well 30 years ago. Yeah, alright. Well, I'll put that in the show notes. Lord of the Rings. Hang on, Lord So that that's been which is kind of like an in insecurity, in inadequate, inadequacy thing. But then I have also had I have recurring dreams of the same situations in the same place over and over again, but there's there's there's about five or six of them, and they're all actual places, but if they change ever so slightly. The people that are in them are all people, and they change ever slightly the topographic topographicalness of the the land sort of changes, but they're they are they are in in in the same places, and it usually revolves around me trying to get away and can't.

SPEAKER_05

That's what that's one of my big ones, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, witnessing like something horrific and being nothing not being able to do anything about it, just being like, you know, trying, but not like behind glass or anything like that. And then it's then me causing like a catastrophic loss of life to a lot of people accidentally, but like not having the ability to to steer the dream essentially, yeah. And they're usually all followed with waking up, yeah. A sort of clinch point, and and some of them to be honest, some of them don't either, they just roll through, yeah. You know, it's like that sweaty sort of like yeah, like you're saying, it's intense. Yeah, you wake up and you're like, Thank fuck, I'm awake.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. And then do you ever get one of the things, you know, I can wake up and then it's it's it's probably not it's more like sleep paralysis where it's like I can be awake and it feels like people are coming to get me in my bed and like pulling my doo-very off, and I'm fucking awake, man. It's horrifying, and then you just wake up and you're like, Yeah, you're just there. It's like that's sleep paralysis.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Oh my god. So that I used to have that as a as a child, so I used to I've I've not had that as an adult, but I used to repeatedly get out of bed, wrap my duvet around myself, like you know, like another Lord of the Rings reference, Oudi, you know, like uh like Candalf. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and stand at the top of the stairs, just staring staring at the ceiling, but completely asleep. But I kind of know it was happening, but I w I wasn't in control of it. And that that that sort of like overbearing, overpowering character would just be there, and then usually I would fall down the stairs.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Which happened quite a few times. Uh sorry, not usually I would fall down the stairs, quite a few times. I fell down the stairs as a result of it, but uh a lot of times I would just stand there until I eventually got shocked out of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

We used to call when you get in your doove like that, we used to call it if it if it wrapped all the way around you, it was a sausage roll, and if it only went a bit, it was a hot dog.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, it's full sausage roll, yeah, yeah. Like just my face poking out of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh yeah, but um so you're diagnosed with ADHD, yeah. So neurodivergence it is obviously has has problems, like we've we we've sort of talked about it before, but 67% of people with ADHD report difficulty getting a good night's sleep, one of the most under-discussed aspects of neurodivergence, and you know, ADHD comes with a delayed circadian rhythm. Yeah, the brain naturally wants to sleep and wake later, you know, and this is obviously against society, so your your circadian rhythm is the the amount of wake you are, and then you know, for a 24-hour period, it you you let's call it like a like a graph, it goes up, you're getting awake, awake, awake, awake, awake, and then you're awake, and then it dips off again and you're falling asleep, and that's your circadian rhythm. ADHD people tend to have a pushed later one, so you're like a night owl, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you tend to want to stay up later and stay in bed later, which obviously makes you lazy.

SPEAKER_05

Um yeah, yeah. Do you do you do find that? What what I learned with with through the Ayurveda studies that I've done is that if you you know there's different parts of the day when you're like you should be what focusing on being productive, and the parts of the day when you should be focusing on nourishment, part of the day based on your circadian rhythm and your dosha and your body constitution, everyone's as different, but yeah, I find I find that with the ADHD. That's the one thing that's affecting my sleep at the minute is getting to sleep. As I said, like I'm getting more hours of sleep, not loads more REM, but I'm getting more light sleep. But it's getting, you know, I can let I can lay on bed on my bed tired, but my brain is still a million miles an hour. It's like the I always use the the slot machines when you pull it and the things just keep spinning and spinning, and one might stop, and you're like, Oh, I'm getting tired, but this the other two are still spinning.

SPEAKER_02

But the subject it stopped on is like it's an argument you had with someone nine years ago, and now you're just replaying it over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing a deep dive on it in your brain. Yeah, I can be thinking about anything, and it's that's the one thing that I am struggling with, and then I'll get to a point where I'm like, right, meditate, let's meditate, and and then I'm trying to meditate, but my there's a million things going through my mind, and I'm like, oh, and then I just get frustrated at myself. Yeah, it's it's it's tricky with the because I can't be medicated for the ADHD, it does make it tricky, and I guess that's kind of why I go to the gym so much, is to try and wear myself out, and I think, but then that becomes an unhealthy, you know. I'm in my 40s now, I can't be going to the gym six times, six times a week without having to fit my joints are aching, you know. It's that knock-on effect, but I think yeah, it's it's hard, and you know, not medicating it makes it tricky. So yeah, just live being a being accepting that I go through the same dance every single night. Yeah. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes I can get off to sleep, sometimes sometimes I can't. Um yeah, it's it's I I do think it the ADHD in sleep is probably not spoken about enough, but it is trying to get my mind to switch off.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Because yeah, you had a had trauma on top of that, yeah. And nightmares. Yeah. So PTSD. Yeah. You know, you you your nervous system never gets a break, it never gets the rest, it never gets the healing.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it's just a never-ending cycle. And then if you had chronic pain, you know, I've I've had three spine surgeries, I've had knee surgery, and every single night it's a battle of just getting comfy so that the the pain isn't there or niggling. Like one of one of the my my knee doesn't really ache in the day, but when when it's straight, it aches because there's no there's no meniscus, and it's arthritic probably now to be born on bone for 15 years for 75% of my 65% of my meniscus got took out. And so like I have to sleep with one leg under so it's bent, so there's a gap, otherwise the born on born just like feel make feels weird.

SPEAKER_02

My b like and my senses are very sensitive to that like feeling, and that disrupts the architecture of your sleep, as it were, yeah. Because, like we talked about those levels of sleep before, you know, just those tiny, infrequent having to move, yeah, and those little awakenings, you know, that it might just take you from level two back into level one. You might not really wake up, wake up, but it's preventing you from getting down into that REM sleep, which you know, and then having shit sleep amplifies the pain, yeah, and then the pain disrupts your sleep more, and there's another loop. We're basically fucked if you've got I don't know if that's the attitude. Like, like all of it, it's awareness, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, having the awareness, but when you don't have that awareness, it's it's you know, it's a very different thing.

SPEAKER_02

It's just the world's fucking ending, mate, and you just you're just sick of everything, aren't you? It's it's insane how all of these things just tiny little things subconsciously just beat you down into the ground.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and I think the one thing that makes it tricky is that you know, if you do go to see a doctor, no one's looking at the trauma, no one's looking at the root, everyone's just looking at take this medication, take this, take this, take this. Oh, yeah, we can give you this, you know. Well, how much of your using was about getting sleep? Well, quite a lot of it was staying awake for as long as I could. Yeah, I think as the as the pain as I got older, you know, I think drinking at home a lot, you know, just to sleep. Yeah, I went through periods where I'm the I am the worst. I'm so one paced and like you know, still slow in everything that I do. Smoke, I smoked weed for a while to ease my pain and to sleep. I'm just like I'm not a weed spot. If you play my voice in and rewind or like on 0.5, that's what I'm like starting. 0.25 speed. Yeah. And I'm just like, you know, I I I did use a lot to try and sleep.

SPEAKER_01

What what about when you come into recovery? Did that what happened to your sleep then?

SPEAKER_05

Well, when I come into recovery, I was proclinically not in touch with reality. So you went on those meds in rec in treatment? Yeah, yeah. I wasn't at first, it was I was in treatment for three and a half months, probably two months in. I started that treatment and started to get some sleep, and that's how part of how getting back to a baseline to me. Yeah, the first two months was hell sleep-wise, and I guess the nine months before that, before go, you know, no sleeping. And I as I said, the I wasn't I wasn't using sleep medication at any point, but I had in the past, I'd used diazepam and what are the other things, the usual is it beta blockers or whatever?

SPEAKER_01

Uh yeah, I've never yeah, the ones that you don't, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

But I guess, you know, trying trying to do it without that has been trial and error, and it's finding things that work for you. Yeah. And you know, I guess what what what are the you know, let's move on to what has actually positivity. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, getting to getting to what has actually helped. Because I think, you know, when you have been through these things and your body exp even if you only experience, you know, PTSD and not chronic pain, or you're neurodiverse, but you don't have PTSD, you know, there's all of these different things affect your sleep in different ways. And so it's like you know, the the standard advice you get for sleep hygiene isn't, you know, we're not all standardly issued human.

SPEAKER_02

It's not designed for it's what it's a classic, it's one size fits no one.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it's not designed for all unique, and we all I guess that's what makes this whole thing so good.

SPEAKER_02

But if someone told you to wind down with a book or keep a sleep diary, yeah, what what how would you feel about that? That would be ignored. Yeah. Dismissed. I mean, even if I wanted to, I wouldn't remember. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, when your nervous system's stuck in survival mode, you know, it's yeah. So yeah. Positivity, what so how what can we do about it? What works, what doesn't work. I spoke about Matt Walker before. Like I said, if you're listening to this and you struggle with sleep and you're resonating with this episode, I strongly suggest perhaps getting in his book or at least just just look him up. Um he's he's been on other podcasts. He he's he's on our list of eventually when we become massive guests that I would love to have on. Yeah. But he he he practices uh QQRT when you're talking about uh sleep time. So this is a really good basic uh sort of mnemonic to to sort of remember that he he he could go on for hours, and I'll try not to imitate him, but essentially it's it's quality of sleep, quantity of sleep, the regularity and timing, and they're four really important things just to start on rebuilding or living a life with decent sleep. So, yeah, obviously the quality speaks for itself, quantity, like we talked about before, between the seven and nine hours, the regularity, you know, it's the the going to bed at the same time, waking up at the same time, and then timing. So with your specific Arcadian rhythm, so like for yourself, if you're a night owl or a morning lark, it's it's making sure that those timings are right for you, yeah. You know, because if you squeeze yourself into a socially acceptable hours, which obviously I appreciate it's you know it's not always easy to do or or or possible, but as close as you can get to that, they're the four things that are gonna bet benefit you immediately in getting sort of normal, good structured sleep.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, there's a good foundation, yeah. Uh uh, yeah. And I think you know, one of the things that helped me in in when I was in treatment, I did a trauma program. Yeah. As you know, for the last m four or five weeks of being in treatment, I did an intense trauma program, and I guess that went hand in hand with my sleep starting to even out because we were addressing you know the the cause of getting to the root of why these cause, yeah. Yeah, but they still they still don't go away about doing that as you know, I guess accepting it and sharing it in groups in a group setting. Shining some light on it, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the things that what are what are the main things that you'd say work so well obviously, yeah. You're still figuring that out.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah, I'm I'm still very much in the and and and have been for many years, but I I really find lately with the clarity that I now have I'm able to sort of take it on board a lot more and and do more about it. So EMDR, you know, again it's treating that root cause, you know, the PTSD, the you know, the traumatic thing that cause causes, you know, the core, the root cause of of the trauma, you know, a lot a lot of all of these things is going back to what actually caused it. You know, it's never the thing that you blew up about that's the thing, it's what you know brought you there. Yeah. So that image rehearsal therapy, that's what I was talking about before, which is the physical version of the medication you take.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So that's doing the same thing as the medication you take, yeah, but in a more powerful way, where you know there's a lot of um journaling to be done, and basically you you reimagine the traumatic incident and then you sleep on it and process it, and then you relive it again, but you you you ever so slightly change the narrative each time, yeah, eventually ending up with a different ending to the story, yeah. And that is a way of using your own brain to to to kind of rewire. Yeah, and to to to r remould the memory so that it's processable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that that's really helpful. I've I've not done a lot of that, I've done a bit of that personally, I've not done that through therapy, yeah, yeah. Uh but it it for it's helping me.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and I think some things that work, as I said, the the exercise, you know, and somatic work. So that's somatic work before bed, doing some gentle movement when you get to 40, doing some stretching after the gym, breath breath work, that's what I try to do every night before bed. I journal, I say some prayers, and then I try and bring try and bring my nervous system down before I try and to sleep. And that's what's what's it called? Box breathing. Box breathing, yeah, really good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I tend to do.

SPEAKER_02

So box breathing's breathe in for five seconds, breathe, hold for five, breathe out for five, yeah, hold out for five, and then yeah, in whatever order you works for you, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

I I tend to do that until my brain is thinking of a million other things. Yeah. And you know what I guess one of the things that has worked for me is not that I I don't do it enough, but my soundballs, if I just put a soundball on my chest for ten, ten beats, fifteen beats, then it just brings it down a bit. I should do that more, but I don't. That's even the Vegas nerve. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And some of the some of the other things that we have know I get I guess this one never really what I'm understanding is the you know the co-regulation sleeping next to someone safe you know it's a pair to voice recording humans regulate better in safe proximity that that hasn't been quite the opposite for me if I'm what I've realized you know looking back in in my relationships is that I've always hated having people in my bed and touching me and you know having a young son I'd never sleep when he was in the bed just you know it's amazing having him in the bed but for my personal sleep it never made me feel safe and that I get a deeper sleep I was always I just those touches of I can't handle it. Yeah it keeps you in that hypervigilance yeah yeah yeah I'm just in a hypersensitive light sleep the whole time but I guess you know it does make sense to why co-regulation and sleeping next to your loved one you know will will help you get that deeper sleep.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah and co-regulation can go as far as just but you know even just being in the same house or something it I think it's it's it's like sort of caveman thing of someone's on watch so it it makes you feel a bit safer. You know there's potentially another person out there to assess a threat.

SPEAKER_05

You know I don't think it has to just be in your bed but yeah the temperature uh cold and then warm a drop in body temperature signals that the sleep sleep onset so a cold shower followed by hot can trigger the process that that's another one of Matthew Walker's things but again the essentially if you just drop the room temperature an hour before bed and drop the light you know that signals uh sleep onset yeah in your brain anyway so that's that's a good thing to do yeah um as we talked about before consistent wake time no bedtime wake time anchoring morning anchoring the morning regulates the circadian rhythm backwards easier than trying to force a sleep at night yeah you met I well I think I said before we hopped on I'm struggling to get to sleep this morning I my I have the same alarms to try and anchor my morning 645 715 and then I woke up at 10 past nine and got out of bed this morning I had a call at 930 yeah you know it's just getting getting that to sleep I'm just waking up exhausted finding that really hard at the minute yeah but I do try to have that consistent work time yeah it's a lot it's a lot easier my when I have my son and we've got the school run when I've at the minute with I'm working for myself and there's no other responsibilities I think it's almost like a psychological thing the days that he's not here I can just I don't even hear the alarm it'll be vibr I've got like a Japanese is it futon the bed oh yeah yeah and it the it's just vibrating on the wooden frame right next to me and it'll go from 6.45 till 10 past nine this morning I don't hear it out of it yeah another good thing is so rem remove the pressure to sleep this this this I've I've been through this I this I this is one thing I don't suffer with but if you're if you're suffering with it it's it's quite easy to get out of well the first thing they ask people who have you've ever had the three o'clock wake up where you just wake up at three o'clock in the morning continuously and you're like what the f why there's ages but it's like how do you know it's three o'clock in the morning yeah because you're looking at the clock and basically what you're doing is you're training your brain subconsciously so what as as as humans you know like repetitive doing things on repeat trains us subconsciously to do things the rules of six and all that sort of important stuff but as neurodiverse people we sink into that repetition a lot quicker a lot easier and a lot more subconsciously so if you if you go to bed and you wake up at a certain time you wake up at three like oh god it's and then the next day you wake up three you can quite quickly train your brain to do that yeah uh which means you can quite quickly train your brain not to do that which is which is really good but the uh the the best thing to do just just to skirt around all of it is practice things like only go to bed for sleep yeah don't lie on your bed on your phone if you if you do wake up in the night and and you instantly don't feel tired get up yeah get up and do so it's so hard it takes that association from being awake in your bed yeah and and and and turns it back to just being asleep in your bed and it is quite quick to turn around and I did that a few years ago after reading that book because that that was something I struggled with.

SPEAKER_02

It was like literally between three and four o'clock every single night I was like I could I could literally wake up and I'd be like I bet you it's within five minutes three. And then I read that read his book and did that and that was amazing that was my first real inkling into being able to control sleep patterns but yeah it's association. Yeah and that's really important with sleep because we do do so much of our life so many times so many repeats everyone does it it's it's built into us yeah you know it's very easy to tie it in with other things.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah yeah yeah I've asked you that before what's the gen what's the one thing that's genuinely helped you that you wouldn't have expected I I didn't I well probably not the that medication just changed yeah changed everything for me took a nice but if you're looking from a more holistic view I think just trying to do that breath work breath breath work body but body scan to relax your body yeah I think those those two are the ones that help me help me the most yeah that's really good struggling. What about you?

SPEAKER_02

Anything the guided meditations for me because meditate like uh kind of a contradictory concept in my brain guided meditation meditation is supposed to be like thinking of nothing and you know all this sort of like shit what are you saying like a a a body scan and stuff and then the guided meditation being like the thing I was amazed how well my my brain it receives a guided meditation.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah yeah yeah I think that's so powerful.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah I don't yeah I found that and I think the some of the ones that I used to do before bed were the good the inner child ones to help me get off yeah inner child guided meditation yeah way and and then one thing that you I never know I never know but if I'm really struggling I'll have a sleepy tea a premium sleepy tea a yogi tea one or um organic what's I think it's called ancestral it's it's a blue box with a teddy bear on yeah and just having a bedtime tea bedtime tea yeah there you go folks delicious yeah no yeah you're right yeah I I I agree how do you think I guess last question was how do you think your sleep differentiates now you're in recovery than when you were using is there any difference yes so I thought I slept the best I slept generally speaking when I was under the influence of alcohol yeah I always thought like a bonus of just being shit us was getting I'll get some sleep fuck but it turns out that that's not the case you you you sleep kind of longer yeah but you don't get good quality sleep. Yeah yeah so it's it's not beneficial for you and obviously you're drenched in toxins and you know all the other things heartburn such like dehydration yeah so that that was something I used to use thinking that it helped me sleep and then since I've come into recovery it is it is just awareness and and knowledge and and being pointing out like we're doing today like stuff like you know Matthew Walker and and and his books and information and stuff and and doing this podcast knowledge is power.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah yeah well you you only know what you only know yeah you say yeah it's it's it is just understanding that helps me has helped me the most figure everything out and and have have some information basically and it's acceptance I think I think all of this all of recovery is just accepting just just today that we might not get some sleep but tomorrow we might you know it's being being present in reality isn't it yeah totally do you want to close us on that yeah okay thanks thanks for a good episode yeah thank you sleep sleep is where the nervous system either gets to repair or keeps fighting a war that's already over you can't run ex can't outrun exhaustion you can't think your way to rest and at some point the work is about making it safe enough to finally put the weapons down yeah nice thanks for that mate okay yeah wicked wicked episode huge one for both of us yeah powerful yeah I've enjoyed that really enjoyed that we're gonna put all those links in the notes if you're listening along as always can you do all that annoying stuff the liking subscribing comment and we'd really love to hear from some people if you want to reach out please we do so and yeah it's it's just it's important just to note that all that liking and comment and subscribing thing as as as annoying as I find it I now kind of understand why people say it because it helps us to gauge you guys and what you guys need and what you're liking and what you're not so you know we're we're here along with you guys.

SPEAKER_02

I hope that was helpful yeah thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah see you guys next week more to taste more to chase more to know more to escape more screams more girls more noise more thrills we wanted more we lost ourselves we'll we paid it cost the deeper we told us