Somewhere Else: Dissociation, Autopilot and the Years We Spent Watching Our Own Lives

There's a version of being gone that nobody can see. You're in the room. You're answering the questions. You're driving the car, making the dinner, having the conversation. But you're not there. You're watching it happen from somewhere behind your own eyes.

In episode 13 of More, Toby and Rudy get into dissociation. What it actually is, where it comes from, and what it's like to spend most of your life watching yourself from a distance. This is one they both have deep lived experience of, and it shows. Rudy has had treatment specifically for dissociation. Toby describes feeling checked out for most of his life, unable to recall large chunks of childhood or adult years, going through the motions on autopilot while someone else seemed to be living his life.

They talk about the difference between depersonalization, feeling detached from yourself, and derealization, when the world goes foggy and flat and dreamlike. They're clear about one thing early on. This isn't psychosis. You don't lose touch with who or where you are. It just stops feeling real. And for anyone who has lived in that state, hearing it named and explained can be the first time it makes any sense.

The conversation goes to some raw places. The emotional numbness that meant holding your newborn daughter and forcing yourself to cry because you couldn't feel the thing you knew you were supposed to feel. Standing at funerals stone cold while everyone around you falls apart. The way numbness quietly wrecks romantic relationships, because you mean it when you say you'll try harder, but the trying happens somewhere inside where nobody can see it. And the particular danger of dissociation, which is that it looks like coping. Nobody intervenes. You can lose years this way and everyone just calls it your personality.

They dig into where it comes from. Childhood homes where feelings were never discussed, where the safest thing to do was disappear into your room and check out before the next telling off landed. The way the earlier and more prolonged the trauma, the more dissociation becomes the default setting, until leaving your own body is just what you do. They connect it back to the freeze response, to chronic pain, and to addiction. Because for both of them, substances weren't only about escaping feeling. Sometimes they were the only way to feel anything at all, to become present, to have a laugh, to get on the same level as everyone else in the room.

And then they get into what actually helps. Not a cure, but real tools they use to come back. The 5-4-3-2-1 senses method, learned through forest bathing. Naming things and saying what they're for to make the world feel real again. The finger to thumb technique for pulling the brain and body back in line. Conscious eating, which sounds almost too simple until you realise how much of life you've swallowed whole without tasting. Sauna and ice. Grounding barefoot on grass. Walking meditation. Gratitude lists first thing in the morning. Check-in alarms through the day that are really just a reminder to wake up and take it in. And underneath all of it, the deeper work, therapy, EMDR, and slowly widening what Rudy learned to call his window of tolerance.

They also talk honestly about the stuff that doesn't work for everyone. Journaling helps Rudy catch his patterns early, but Toby finds it a chore that gives him nothing back. That's the point. Some things land for some people and not others, and the work is finding your own way back.

This one covers a lot. Recovery as constant action rather than talk. Measuring progress not in milestones but in presence. The strange grief of realising how much of your life you were never really there for. And a fair bit about the system we're all living in, working to live and living to work, and how easily modern life pushes you to check out just to get through the day.

If you've ever felt like you were watching your own life through glass, moving through the days on autopilot while everyone assumed you were fine, this one is for you.

More is hosted by Toby Lerone and Rudy Youngblood. Two men with lived experience of addiction, trauma, mental health and neurodiversity. Recorded in a single take. Unedited. Unfiltered.

Please note, this episode contains swearing and discussion of suicidal ideation. If you're struggling, please reach out to someone. You don't have to white-knuckle it alone.

Resources from episode;

- Eckhhart Tolle - The Power of Now
- 5-4-3-2-1 Grounding Technique
- Finger Tapping Grounding Technique
- Window of Tolerance
- Shinrin Yoku aka Forest Bathing
- Bare Feet on the Ground

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

We live in a world that never stops offering more. More to buy, more to scroll, more to numb, and more to escape. Until the wanting becomes normal and stopping feels impossible.

SPEAKER_04 0:19

And somehow, the harder we chase it, the more burnt out, anxious, addicted, and disconnected we become.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

This is More, a podcast hosted by people with lived experience of addiction, mental health issues, trauma, and neurodiversity. Where the pursuit of more led us to rock bottom and has since led us to finding alternative ways to live.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Each week we have raw, honest conversations with each other and our guests, grounded in lived experience, about what the chase takes from us and what's possible when we stop running.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Through these conversations, we hear a diverse collection of stories and experiences from those who have found an alternative way to exist in the world.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

These conversations are recorded in a single take, with no editing, so what you hear is real and unfiltered. Some names and places may be changed in order to protect those sharing their stories.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Welcome to Moore. Excuse me, to episode 13 of More. Great start. Listener discretion is advised as always. This episode's gonna contain probably swearing, probably talks of suicide ideation. Because we are discussing disassociation.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

And on that, there's a version of being gone that nobody can see. You're in the room, you're answering the questions, you're driving the car, making the dinner, having the conversation, but you're not there. You're watching it happen from somewhere behind your own eyes. For years, that wasn't a symptom to us. It was just how we felt. Today we're talking about the years we spent somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

This association. Yeah, another biggie, isn't it? It is a biggie. Quite closely tied in with the uh freeze response and such like. But yeah, before that, little check-in. Yeah, check-in there.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

How are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

I'm doing good. I feel actually I feel today is just gratitude. And I keep saying this, but so I was supposed to be working today, and then I cancelled the work because I had something else that I had to go and do, and then that fell through. And then instead of going back to work, because it's like 7,000 degrees, I decided to take the day off. And I'm so glad I did. I've just done some self-work, a bit of self-care, done lots of check-ins with people, and just reminded myself of all the things I have to be grateful for throughout the day and sat in the shade. Nice. Yeah, so I'm feeling I'm feeling grateful. Mate, what about what about you? How are you checking in?

SPEAKER_04 3:26

Uh checking in sweaty. Yep. No, I think I'm alright, man. Just feeling normal. Normal?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Not allowed to use that word anymore.

SPEAKER_04 3:45

Just my normal. Like not good, not bad. Just like but there. Yeah, mate, that's pretty good. But I have like last I think yesterday, the day before, is the first time I felt like that that heaviness of the depression that I get. And I was just like fuck. But seems seems to be alright today. But I haven't had that since well, may it's what's the date? It's literally like two years nearly since I went to treatment. Is it, yeah. So I probably haven't really well I felt I felt it for the first two months when I got back, but it's been a long if you look at my journals now, it's been a long time since I had that to put so I think it's just a reminder. I don't feel it today. But mate, other than that, I'm doing alright, man. Just like busy. Yeah. But just that's busy and tired. Checking in busy. Checking in the busiest I've been in two years. That's good. Is it is it? Well. No, it's a it's alright, man. It's all good stuff. How are you getting on with your meds? The meds.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

You went on some new meds, weren't you, last episode of a time?

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's mate, I don't feel any different, to be honest. I have like well mate, I've gone on to I had to go and see the psychiatrist on Munda. And she she's I'm going on a higher dose on the ADHD. I think my chronic on that medication I don't know if it's like affecting my my I do feel a bit more focused, but it's lifting the chronic fatigue.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

And so I don't know if it's having the right effect because it's not like I'm it's combating the ADHD, but it it is. I guess it's in that family of drugs, isn't it? Yeah. It's like I'm not knackered all the time. Speed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so but I j I don't know. We'll s we'll see how. That must be nice though. Yeah, yeah, because I can just get shit done really. Yeah. And not feel like I need a four-hour kip ever after I do every test. So yeah, that's mate, it's all gone alright. Like, I don't I don't know. My my sleep's alright. I've ditched my watch because I was just like, what am I using for? My sleep's alright. What your Fitbit thing. I got a fucking hate wearing a watch, man. Look what I've got. Yeah, yeah. It's good.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Yeah. Obviously, this is a podcast so you can't see what I'm doing by waving my finger at you. Uh I've got uh an aura ring, like wearable tech, isn't it, basically? Yeah. So like a Fitbit but for in in a ring form on your finger as opposed on your wrist. Game changer. Game changer. Absolutely love it. Yeah. It's not it's not cumbersome. The battery lasts like six days. Nice. Which for me is I don't know, I don't even know where the battery would be in it. Like it's like it's literally a ring. Insane. I don't know how like a Fitbit lasts.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Last seven minutes. Last yeah, yeah. I d I didn't have I don't well, I don't have any sort of I don't have any notifications to come through on a fit. Yeah. So I guess it lasted a bit longer. Because I had all of that sh shit turned off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But maybe it's just doing my head and I was like, what am I tracking? I know I'm not getting my steps in because I'm sat on my ass on my laptop all day. As long as I'm going to the gym and exercising, then I'm at least I'm doing something. Yeah, yeah. And so I've I've I've ditched it, my sleep sound. Yeah. I feel like it becomes a thing where I was just checking out all the time.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you d you do, you kind of do, don't you? You become like obsessed with it.

SPEAKER_04 7:37

Yeah. Well, I guess it goes back to diso disassociation. When I wasn't sleeping, I'm all my life as depersonalised and disassociated. Yeah. And it's like mate, I just didn't know the days just pass by. Yeah. You don't remember any of it. But yeah, it doesn't feel like that at the minute.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

That's good, mate. Well, all sounds pretty positive. Like in a in a just like p Joe Bloggs kind of way. Yeah. Yeah. Mate, it's as good as it can be. Fucking good you your sleep's okay. Yeah. You chronic fatigue's lifted. Because I'm high as a cat.

SPEAKER_04 8:13

Lifting.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

I mean, yeah. It's it's progress, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 8:21

Yeah. It's definitely progress. Smashing the gym, eating, like I said, just eating far too much food and paying the price for a my career heaviest.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Yeah. I'm just like looking good, mate. Getting short of mate, not around the midriff. You're just not doing well for the environment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

And like I've never I've never been this like I've just got too into it, I think. I've never carried this much weight. Like walking up that hill from my house, I'm like I'm like, what is what you're doing this to yourself for? But it's all it's all good, man. It could be I could be doing a lot worse to myself.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah, cool, mate. Well, yeah, just going back to that ring. If anyone listening uh is trying to track their health. Yeah, what does it track? For everything. Does it? It is a wicked bit of kit. Heart rate, stress levels, blood oxygen, sleep, but then it it it it characteristics it characterizes your chronotype. Let me pop up the app and I'll I'll whack off some buzzwords. So like it gives you like a performance readiness for your day depending on your sleep and your food intake previously. Like it gives you like a proper map of where you are overall with your health going along in and gives it you in a chart form. Yeah, loads. Like I've just opened mine up and it says, you know, bedtime's approaching. If you want to prepare yourself for good quality sleep, now is the time to start winding down your body and your mind, and then it gives you stuff and activities you can do. So should we call it a duck? Yeah. It's got a daily summary, yeah, telling me about my resting heart rate, things to watch, and and as as you go forward, it gives you a real-time baseline of your life and habits and where you need to pay some more attention. And you know, it doesn't, it's not like you're not doing this, you're not doing that. It's like maybe this could use a bit of looking at, or maybe so it's it's quite good, it's not too down your throat. But yeah, it gives you a an overall plan, like already, and because it it because when I had the Fitbit, I was the same. I was just like sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep, just obsessing over like why am I not sleeping? When did I I was awake for seven minutes then? Yeah, yeah. Because that's kind of it gives you that the sort of like chart and just leaves you to depict it yours to pick it apart yourself, whereas this gives you all the information on how, why, things that have affected things that you can do about it. Brilliant. I would highly recommend it alongside first sponsors, which are gonna be Yamaha, second sponsors, hopefully Aura, rings, wicked bit of kit. Look it up. Yeah, it's hot.

SPEAKER_04 11:26

It is huh. It's so hot. How's that? Is your new bike Yamaha? Yeah. How is it?

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yeah, it's good. So good. I've had some some sexy bits put on it. Nice. By a friend, which is nice. Yeah, the bike's good, but I've been too I've been too ill since last episode. We skipped a week again, didn't we? Because I I basically died of man flu. But was actually flu, it was like well, the doctor reckoned it was tonsillitis, but I went man down, hard, throat all swollen up, massive photosensitivity, sort of like migraines, joint pain. Like I could only sort of like move one joint in my body at a time. It was like that bad. It's the it's the illest I've ever been. Really? Yeah. Fever, and it was like 35 degrees. And I'm in a basically a caravan wrapped in a duvet, shivering.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

But so I can wet.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah, oh man, it was it was bad, yeah. Yeah. I I'm I'm sort of back I'm I'm better now, but still like catching up on the fatigue like today. I I went I had a nap at buddy about nine o'clock until about twelve. Just completely wiped out. Just still haven't got the energy. But yeah, yeah, some good people around me helped me out. That was takes time as well, doesn't it? To get off, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really just really run down. Yeah, it kicked my ass. Yeah. It really did. When it first started coming on, I was like. Well, I'll tell you what I thought it was. My my mum bought a I'm gonna have to look to see what it's called now, so I make sure that I I use it by its right name. But basically, because of like stuff that's happened to me, and if you listen to this, you'll sort of know my story. Because I have effectively left my body, she thinks that bad energy and other sort of like beings and whatnot could could have taken over parts of my body and stuff. So she got me a J Seals and Unnatural Implants Removal session, which is like a I d I'm sorry, trying to say this without saying pessimistic. It's a long distance because I'm not I'm not pessimistic. I'm I remain open-minded, but so basically they do an energy like Reiki. Like Reiki, but they're in Hotland. Yeah. So like proper, like working from home.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

And um so yeah, and and it mum's got it for me, and like I have to s I have to stay open-minded now because I'm not I don't do that narrow-minded stuff now, and and and and and I am, and you know, and if it is a thing, God, I'm I'm open to it. So I booked in my session or whatever, and they say you just have to like lie down on your bed or whatever, and just like not have any watch or jewellery or anything on and just be open to it. And I had this the the the the session, but I sort of fell asleep and I woke up and the caravan was rocking. Really? It like legit was rocking, because like the stuff in the cupboard was rattling, and I was like, what? Well, and I looked at the time and it was like it was banging the middle of it, and I sort of went back to sleep. And like there's no one round here to be rocking anyway. So yeah, something was you know, something was going on, but then it was like not long after that that I got ill, and I was like, is this like something leaving my body? And then it got that bad. I was like, that maybe this is something leaving my body. I was like, I was like, lay delirious, because I was I was like in and out of consciousness. I sort of came to outside on the floor at one point. I was stumbling around in here, hallucinating, I was I was ill. Did you message them in a last few minutes? Yeah, and I think at one point I remember saying, get out of my body.

SPEAKER_04 15:41

But yeah. How did you feel after that? Well, just instantly ill.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Do you think I no, it wasn't it wasn't instantly, but it was like they s they set they sc they sent me a follow-up email saying you know it would take like a couple of days, months, maybe even like a year for it all to sort of like look after yourself and all that sort of drink plenty of water. Crack. I think I'm in the wrong game. I know that's exactly what I said when mum when mum said to me, she was like, Oh yeah, I've booked it or whatever. And I was thinking, oh, it's a like a because I had to send me an email and had to go on there and book my s my time slot. I was like, it would be like a a video thing or whatever. Or like in person. And she's like, no, it won't and I clicked on it and it's like you have to be part of it. I was like, Jesus. I mean Yeah. It's a pretty good You don't even speak to anyone. No. I know. It's hard not to be sceptical, yeah. But I'm trying not to be. And hopefully it did some out. But yeah, but then I was it wasn't long after that that I was very ill, so maybe it did. Maybe it exercised the demon, and that was it coming out of me. See how it goes.

SPEAKER_04 16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Cubers posted. Do you know what? I feel good. Yeah. Right, should we should we get into this?

SPEAKER_04 17:02

Yeah, yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

This is dis d disassociation. There's lots of big words we're gonna be using today. Have had treatment for disassociation, so it's definitely something that that is relevant for me. And I think probably when people start hearing a lot of this, they'll realise that it's quite common in people in this sort of if you've had any trauma or PTSD, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:33

Then it's quite it's a it's a coping mechanism as such, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I think I've got a lot of lived experience of this. You know, I think I'd uh for me, I feel like spent most of my life disassociated. When you go through treatment and therapy and you try and recall childhood and you just don't remember any of it. Yeah, yeah. Most of like adult life as well. I can remember when I was using and all of those, but like day-to-day life, just completely checked out, watching the w someone else live my life. Yeah, yeah. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yeah, totally. And it's so it's not it's not a disorder itself, is it? It's the nervous system's way of protecting you when you're overwhelmed or too overwhelmed to be present in the situation. You know, it's survival response. So I mean you can probably you can probably become disassociated from quite minor things, I would imagine. Yeah. I say well minor, but like as in it doesn't have to be big T stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think uh even being witness to some stuff could could definitely put you into disassociation.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

Yeah. And it's very well, it's very similar to when you're daydreaming or you're driving along a motorway and you're an autopilot.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

That's like one end of the spectrum, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 19:09

Yeah, yeah. And then it's it's just very heightened. It's like a hundred X that. Yeah. And it never gets turned down.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah, it s stays stays there.

SPEAKER_04 19:21

Yeah. And I think part of that, you know, is the depersonalisation as well. Uh that has been a big part of my story. And I think, especially in relationship, is that I I I'm I'm just not there. Yeah. People are expecting things, and it's like I'm just completely detached watching that as I said, watching life through through a window, watching my own life, and there's nothing I can do, you know, and the more people call it out, or it gets worse. They'll be like, oh I don't know. People, friends, you know, when you're gonna snap out of it, you just go deeper into it. Yeah. It's just like a bigger and bigger hole that I can't get out of.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

So it's so it's it's not like psychosis. You've you've you you haven't lost touch with reality, you know, you've not gone mental. You know who you are, you know where you are. It's just that feeling of things not being real but not being not not carrying it's quite hard to explain, actually. Not carrying as much oh, I don't know. I d I d it's quite a sensory thing for me. Like I don't think don't feel real, but they don't feel like they have any sustenance. It just it just feels like like w watching Yeah, it's like disconnected, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 20:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

But not like I don't I don't get that like I'm above myself, watching myself. Do you know what I mean? I just feel like and I've said it before, I get like this sort of just like I'm kind of like watching my life through two like eye eye-shaped size holes in the distance. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So I'm kind of like I say in the distance, not that far, but it's quite hard to explain. It's just like I'm just I'm just back there and it's all autopilot, it's all okay, you know, you're just about getting by. Body's doing everything that it it can do on autopilot, but you know, if you ask me to do anything that requires emotional maturity or sort of yeah. Empathy or anything like that. Intimacy is just Yeah, intimacy, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. No go for me. Yeah. And that's so yeah, derealization, you know.

unknown 21:59

The

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Not feeling real. The world feels foggy, flat, like a dream.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

Yeah. Yeah, it does. And like from the outside, it looks like you're just being for me. Why why are you so miserable?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Yeah, yeah. And it's like, well Well, lazy, I suppose. Again, like the freeze response, isn't it? You know? Yeah. Checked out.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

Whereas like I'm trying my hardest, but I just can't. And it's out of my control. Yeah. And but at the end, before I went to treatment, I did have the the psychosis where I just lost touch completely. Yeah. And the only way I could see it stopping was to end it. To stop it.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah. You know what? I wonder if I yeah, I I might have been on the verge of that when I got into recovery. I've been thinking about that a lot lately. Yeah. When did you first realise the way you'd been living wasn't how everyone else experienced being alive?

SPEAKER_04 23:00

Well, I kinda I kind of knew for the last 10 years since I started therapy. I first, you know, I was depressed and disassociated. I wasn't present, had a new child trying to manage that and a relationship and working backwards and forwards from London.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

And I met I just wasn't working.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

The more the more sort of like real life stuff that piles up, the harder it is to hide these things, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. You sort of like you can get by when you just skin deep. But when you yeah, like you say, like intimacy, the the having children, creating businesses, all those things where you have to be around people a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_04 23:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Starts becoming a bit more obvious, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_04 23:48

Yeah, yeah. When you're accountable to people as well, I think that's when like when I'm on my own and I'm disassociated, no one. I'm just on my own. Yeah. Disassociate. Yeah. But when you know, when there's children, friends, family, partners, I think it's it's very different. Um and it's it's tricky. I think, you know, I kinda knew over the years and years, but then I used a lot to escape her, or to mask it even to feel more normal. Yeah. But now now I can just spot her, you know, I I isolate, I just won't go anywhere. And I think once I start not leaving the house, if I'm not sleeping, it's a very slippery slope. You know. But yeah, thankfully, I you know, I still feel that numbness every day. I don't feel like that's one of the things that I've had the pleasure of getting back in my recovery. You know, all of those the sayings is you know, the but the good thing is you get your feelings back, the bad thing you get your feelings back. I just haven't had that. Yeah. And I just don't think I've ever had those feelings, and I think that's part of why my using and where I am on the spectrum is, you know, and I think I d I don't know, I think I've probably felt disassociated or numb uh my whole life to some extent.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

It's a funny thing, isn't it? What about you?

SPEAKER_00 25:26

When do you think you've Yeah After After taking acid as a kid definitely I think that exacerbated that definitely for obvious reasons, but the the most sort of like recent, I think, or the most relative, I guess easier to remember when when I left the military, I sort of I I quite a lot of things happened at the same time. I became involved in a relationship, like the beginning of a long-term relationship. You know, I lost my job, my family, and all that sort of thing in in one swoop and was in chronic pain like living with it.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

I d I think chronic pain's a good definitely contributes to disassociation.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Yeah, well, you just don't all all of those things, and then you know, had had my daughter so became a parent, all of this stuff happened within like six, eight months, all definitely within a year. And I I think that's where for I kind of feel like I was before that I was kind of working my way out of it. I was kind of like blossoming uh out of disassociation a bit. I was kind of like getting a bit more present, but not, you know, you know, I've never I've definitely not been present for a long, long time, but but but beginning to have like tastes of it. Um when all that happened, I think I went into while you were still in the military. No, when I came out when when when everything just went to fuck, I think I think then that's when I I started disassociating or I disassociated and stayed there for quite a long time. Yeah. Like as an adult. I you know, I would I I've said it before, I was just on autopilot. You you weren't getting a lot out of me. Outwardly doing stuff, which is mad, isn't it? You know, because it it's it's such a strange thought, you know. Um but it's kind of like it's almost like living your life, but just looking at at the at the memories, like the next day, you're like a a a day behind, yeah, thinking, oh god fucking hell did I do that. So yeah, that that was it it it wasn't then that I realised that, but I think that's when it happened, and then the realization of that has only happened since being in recovery. Yeah. And doing this work and figuring out all this stuff exists, because before when you're in it, you don't think it's the norm, don't you? Yeah, just I just think I'm just a bit of a fucking weirdo, and that's just the way it is. Yeah. Where does it come from then?

SPEAKER_04 28:37

Well, I guess it's survival, isn't it? I think that it's a defense against being overwhelmed through different situations. I d I think for for me, I d I think that come from dysfunctional childhood, dysfunctional environment that I lived in.

SPEAKER_03 29:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

You know, and as you said, you don't know any different, it's your whole world, isn't it? It's just the norm. Yeah. And then it becomes long term then. Yeah. And becomes your default. You know, I think just escaping to my bedroom and being silent in my bedroom. There was no not as a kid, maybe when I was a late teenager, you could get him on a headset, but there was none of that. You know, you just go in your room and watch a video or put a CD on, you know, and and escape. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Um Which is which is escaping a little bit as a as a kid is okay, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

But like the earlier and more prolonged the trauma is, yeah, the more disassociation becomes a default setting.

SPEAKER_04 29:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

It just becomes the thing that you you go to, and if it's happening often, and it's your only escape, like the freeze response, you leave, but you can't leave. So you leave within yourself.

SPEAKER_04 30:01

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, and I think at home no one ever talked about any feelings or what you were doing. So if I'd go out and I was out of my mates and we get in trouble, or we get chased, or we're scrapping, I couldn't go home and tell my parents or I've been fighting or whatever, and then I'd just go in my room and completely disassociate because I didn't have anywhere, you know, that fear of you know, all of those feelings that I probably did have as a kid just all disappear slowly but truly. You know, and I think Yeah, I think the PTSD, especially as a kid, where well in the household, getting told off all the time and disciplined, and you know I think disassociation just becomes the the norm, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Can can you pinpoint any uh like the first feeling of it?

SPEAKER_04 31:00

Do you think? Just meh, just like just like my like my mum would be like, you know, you'd mess around and she'd shout at us and hit us, and then she'd be like, right, wait until your dad gets home, you'll know about it then.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

And then you know, you disassociate and ready for that coming in. You're just trying to zone out because you know you're gonna get your ass smacked. Yeah, yeah. You know, and that's you you disassociate, and so you could give somewhere else by the time that happens, it gets to that point.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:31

You know, and you're shitting yourself so much, you're so overwhelmed that you just disassociate. Yeah. Now now I know about it. I can see. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, you're not calling it at the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think you know, the sad thing is that when I try and think of my childhood, I said this to my brother recently, is that I can only remember most of the bad stores, bad things.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:54

Yeah, so and it's like yeah, it's like that in of not knowing what to do, just the fear and the overwhelm. Yeah. And you know, similarly, well, I think I shared before when I fainted on the stage at the Christmas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:12

The debut. Yeah, yeah. Performance. My Broadway debut. Short-lived. Yeah. So it's tricky. What about you?

SPEAKER_00 32:21

When do you think you could first similarly to when you come out of the Yeah, uh I was just thinking about that then when you said that it so some of my earliest like fearful memories really are sort of like around my stepdad and he used to like he used to like punch doors and slam doors and break stuff. I've sort of said before on here, you know, he's a bit of a confused guy, but he used to used to like hit me a bit and you know, he'd like wash my mouth out with soap and stuff, and and and definitely from that, but I think the one thing that's really jumping out in my head is he I came home from school one day and he'd he and I had a PlayStation in my bedroom and was it a play or something like that, yeah. I think it was PlayStation, yeah, it was. And and my window was broken in my room, and my PlayStation controller was like all busted, and I was like, someone's thrown my controller, you know, they were leaded back then, even they were like, you know, obviously pulled it back or whatever. And I and I can remember when I when I got into my room, I'd seen the smashed window, and then I looked at my controller on the table and it was smashed. I can remember like literally sort of just being like just just just that overwhelm of like you know what's that what's gonna come from this now, the repercussion. Can I even point out that someone's done it and yeah, and what yeah, and I know who it is, but ramifications of that, am I gonna yeah, and and this just sort of just like yeah, this just whole just recoiling into myself, yeah. Feeling fear, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

Yeah. It's like fucking hell. One of one of my one of my one of my schoolmates mum used to, if he'd be naughty at school, she just cut the lead and say you have to save your pocket money for another one. Just that sort of shit. But yeah, I'd left that it's that feeling, isn't it? Of like not knowing you're a kid. You can't like yeah, you can't approach anyone and say, look, what what's the crack?

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Unsafe.

SPEAKER_04 34:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you then you just go into yourself. Yeah. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Yeah. So the the we got some stats.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Have we got some stats? I think we got some stats a bit. Should we hit some stats up very quickly? Fifteen to thirty percent of people with PTSD have the disassociative subtype which is depersonalization or derealization. So fifteen to thirty percent of people with PTSD, go, that's a lot actually.

SPEAKER_04 35:32

Because it there must be so many, but everyone must have their PTSD.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Exactly. And that's what I mean before. It can be a traumatic event, it can be quite small. And you know, like that course we did when we were talking about two people can be in the same car crash and neither of them get hurt, or it could be exactly the same scenario, yeah, and and two people can interpret it completely different. One can have a scarf for the rest of their life, metaphorically speaking, and and the other could just be absolutely fine. So yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:07

That's that's Matt. What's another stat is that you know the the earlier and the more prolonged the trauma that will strongly predict disassociation becoming the default response, and that I think that sums it up for me. Mm-hmm. That is that is Rudy in a nutshell. Yeah. That is I would say.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

There you go. Trauma and addiction are strongly linked, and they're linked to higher rates of disassociation, associative symptoms, which again it's it's back to that sort of like thing of using not to feel or using to feel. Yeah. Yeah, which is you know a massive thing. When I first came into recovery, and everyone's like, Oh, you know, I was trying to escape this feeling and whatever, and and I you know, I've literally done the opposite to to try and feel. Yes, you know, to try and just be just to try and become more present. It's like fucking when I take some drugs, I am actually present.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

Uh and I actually feel something.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I have a have a I want to have some input into something.

SPEAKER_04 37:23

Yeah. And I think that's you know, I can see now that I'd go and just have a laugh in the pub. Whereas day-to-day life, I wasn't really having a laugh. I needed substances, whether that was alcohol or drugs, to kind of get on the level of other people, other humans.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Isn't that sad? And you can't see it. I used to go to my mates, right? And this isn't that long ago. This is like fairly recent history. And and we'd drive there a couple of hours away, whatever, you know, loads of he'd have loads of we'd all be all we'd be talking about is like the beers and the cider and all that sort of thing. And we get there, and I'd like pretty much have nothing to say to the bloke. We'd and we'd both just stand there and just chug like a litre bottle of cider each, and then we'd just be like in hysterics all night. Yeah. But had had we've tried to had that interaction sober, fuck, I don't know what we'd have talked about.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Nothing. And I'd have just been I just would rather have just gone home. Yeah. So sad. It's fucking so sad that I thought that was just that was just how my life was gonna be.

SPEAKER_04 38:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

And normal.

SPEAKER_04 38:30

Yeah. And you just sit all night talking about all the other nights. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All the funny bits from the other nights when you're doing the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Yeah. Yeah, but just nothing, just nothing there. Just fucking just completely disassociated, just unable to function properly, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:50

I was in um I w I was in where was I last week? In Bristol. Newcastle. Newcastle. And I was working, I was waiting outside, I was in the city centre waiting for someone. And just a lad, just it was like super hot. Not obviously not as hot down here, but it was like 28, 29, blazing sun, and this lad just walked past me like full jogging suit, two litres of cider under each arm, swaying like Connor McGregor, singing at the top of his voice. Truffed. Truffed a bit, man. And I was just like, is that a good thing? He looks happy to me, man. But you know, I can remember just you know, it's like getting getting the picking up, isn't it? You know, get getting those you know what's ahead when you've just got what you wanted, whether it's booze or drugs. Yeah. And you know, it's like a funny, funny reminder of how things were. Just I don't know why I thought of that then when you said about meeting people and drinking. I just remember him very prominently we're hanging around in Newcastle last week. Living his best life. I'm pretty sure he wasn't, but well from the outside it looked like he was to the rest of the city, so no.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Maybe it's maybe he's still having fun, mate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

You never know.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

You never know. Have you so emotion emotional numbness, something we both know a lot about. Yeah. Which which is such a strange thing to explain to somebody who doesn't understand. So it's knowing you care about something or someone, but not being able to feel it, like the volume on the feeling setting is just turned to zero. That is that that sums me up in a sentence, and it's a hundred percent disassociation because I know I know there's been parts of my life where I have felt not to the extremes that I think I should, yeah, because I don't think I do feel that hard, but I do have feelings. Yeah. But the perfect example for me, when when my daughter was born, the most amazing, the most amazing thing that's ever happened. I've from a distance, but right next to watch I give birth, was the first person to hold my daughter, and I was I was like in my head, I was just like screaming at myself, why can't you feel this? You know, like people always say about oh my god, it's a miracle. It's like watching a miracle, and I was like, Yeah, it's cool, it's cool. I was just like, all I want to do is go to work. I just wanted to like get her down on the table, change put a nappy on her and that, get her wrapped up with clothes and do the little thing, and I was like forcing myself to cry.

SPEAKER_04 41:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Just I just completely numb.

SPEAKER_04 42:00

It's hard, isn't it? And I I think it shows our funerals and things where like, you know, people I care about so much, yeah, and love and respect, and I'm just there like looking like an absolute idiot. And everyone's like flagging and upset, and I'm just there like stone cold serial killer. Yeah. And it's just it's just that emotional numbness, man. It's just like I can't I can't explain it. And it and it has like that that numbness has affected my romantic relationships 100%. Yeah. Because even when I'd be like, oh yeah, I'm gonna try harder, but then you know, saying it and doing it is yeah, when you're trapped in it, yeah, it's two very different things, and then you're constantly letting people down.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:53

Like in my mind, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm definitely gonna try. But it doesn't trying inside, but it doesn't come off that way because I'm so numb and disassociated. Yeah. It's a hard thing, isn't it? It's a hard thing to explain to people who who don't really experience it that often.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Yeah, totally. And the the danger is because it looks like you're coping. Yeah. You know, nobody ever would intervene. Yeah. You know, and you lose the years and people just like you said, call it your personality.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

Yeah, yeah. Definitely. And I think like even even this, I spoke to like a a guy who I worked with a few years ago, stopped working with him in 2022. And I I worked with some of our friends recently, just before I went into treatment, and I kind of just disappeared and then I never got back in touch with him because of like the guilt and the shame and just feeling a bit embarrassed about it. But I r I actually reached out to him this week saying, Look, do you want to have a catcher? I think I'm ready to tell you what happened. Oh nice. And just be like touch base again. You know, so that that'll that'll be good, I think. Because I I think for me that's kind of what comes with it all is all of that the guilt and the shame, the frustration is that you want to be able to connect with people and reciprocate as well, isn't it? Yeah. Meeting other people's needs. Yeah. Yeah. And it just looks like for me, I it looks like I'm in victor mud a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

When I'm I'm not. I'm just from the outside it can look like that. But you know I'm not. I'm actually trying really hard.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

So how much how much do you of your life do you reckon you've actually been present for?

SPEAKER_04 44:58

The last 18 months.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Yeah. Give or take. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:03

Nah. I d I don't know. I still feel long periods of every day where if if I'm not careful, they can just slip by. Like even being on this laptop, you know, it's I might not be being hundred percent productive. I could just be looking at stuff and like hours just pass. You know, and I think I I think it's a very it's har it's hard to kind of put a number on that presence, I think.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah I was kind of thinking about this today because I was I was doing like my c bring myself in today presents, eat my breakfast, taste the f and I even did it at lunch. I took myself out for lunch and I was like sat in this cafe on my own, like eating a fry up for like a bit of bacon, chew it, taste the bacon with my eyes shut, you know what I mean? Like and then I opening my eyes looking around, being like, everyone thinks I'm fucking weirdo. No, I think But I have to do that. I have if I don't do that, I'm not. I'm just fucking I'm just I'm not present.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the things that I learned in when I was in treatment is about the my window of tolerance, and where if you know, if you've if you're in your within your window of tolerance, you're present mostly, and then if you're out of it, you know, you go to hyperarousal, and then what's the opposite of hyperarousal? I can't remember.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

Don't know.

SPEAKER_04 46:52

You say you go to two opposite ends of the scale, and it's mostly when you're thinking about the past or thinking about the future. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. If you stay in your window of tolerance, yeah, you're present, and then m the more therapy and the more work you do, and the more you come into recovery, you start to widen your window of tolerance. Okay, yeah. So you're more present. Yeah. You know, and I think ultimately the dream is to have a window of tolerance as wide as the English Channel.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Yeah, yeah. Or the Atlantic. I was gonna say somewhat rude then. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, to yeah, 24 hour fucking window, innit? Yeah. Mate, yeah. Like that's that's that's yeah, really good. It's bang on, in it. I I'd never thought of it like that. But yeah, I guess for me, my my window is definitely opening through doing all this stuff, and it and you have to do the work. Yeah. Because I bullshit myself and other people sometimes. I'm like, yeah, I did that today, and I'm like, I fucking did. Yeah, I'll do I'll do extra tomorrow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:02

Double wink. I always remember what um probably one of the the only things that I remember my dad saying is like you only get out what you put in. Yeah. And you know, one of the fellows who we know, he always says uh about the 12-step programme is you only get out what you put in. It's true with all your recovery. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

You're only cheating yourself if you're not doing it.

SPEAKER_04 48:27

Yeah. And my ther my therapist when when I left treatment, thinking about this a lot, because it's over the last few days. Well, they actually did a reunion in London, an alumni reunion, last Sunday. But I chose I chose not to go. I didn't think it was healthy for my recovery. Yeah, I get that. So I've been thinking about it a lot, and he he said like anyone can talk a good recovery. Yeah. But if you want to live recovery is constant actions. He said it's an a it's an action way of living. Yeah. Doing things and you don't want to do them. Yeah. Because you know you I guess it's discipline as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Yeah, it's a new way of life, mate. It's a a a life in in the concept that I've never lived. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:15

Yeah. Away from compulsion.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like just I go on for hours about the pst arguments I have with myself in my head at the moment, but yeah, rejecting fantasy. Yeah. Recognizing and stopping compulsion. Yeah. Talking down the devil on the shoulder, f all of it, mate. Yeah. And yeah. And and and and like like you say, the window's growing. I think mine's probably about the size of a fifty pence piece at the moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:54

Have you have you read or listened to The Power of Now by Eckhart Toll?

SPEAKER_00 49:59

No.

SPEAKER_04 49:59

Should you should listen to that while you've got a bit of time?

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Yeah, okay. Yeah, write that down.

SPEAKER_04 50:04

Yeah, yeah. Because that's all about being we're all we have is the now. Yeah. Time is just a concept we've created. Like even the last even what I just said, those words, they're never coming back. Yeah, yeah, no. And then you you can't look to the future because no one knows what's gonna happen. Yeah. So you have to be in the now as much as possible.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

My brain loves stuff like that when you know when you can when it can be fed stuff like that, you know. I I I really I really soak that in.

SPEAKER_04 50:36

Well, his original books, it's not that long, it's very insightful. And then he did a following up book called Practicing the Power of Now where it has all exercises. Sound. And you can they they're dead cheap on Eba. Oh, I'll put that in the show notes as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he's yeah, he's good for the present stuff.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Yeah. Keeping it present, well that's again, that's the it's kind of like for me, I can't talk for everyone, but it's kind of the the end goal really, yeah. Is to to be present, you know. Uh I mean everything else is obviously everything else that comes with recovery is is is great and whatever, but the the I'll I'll I think I I measure my recovery now in presence. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. I kind of when I'm there in the moment enjoying it without anything else, without the shit FM in my head, without all of the carnage, the chaos that I've caused, and the lies and the webs that I've got to keep all plates spinning in the air. Yeah. I'm there. Yeah. I'm there for those brief little moments.

SPEAKER_04 51:54

Yeah. And I I think it's like doing things like when it when it was absolutely scorchio the other week, got to like five o'clock, and I was I was like, right, and I want to get some sun, but I don't I don't want to walk around with my top off or go and lay in the park.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

God, you have changed.

SPEAKER_04 52:15

And so I went I went up to Alfred's Tower. Oh yeah. And you know, I knew no one was walking their dogs because it was too hot for dogs to be on. Yeah. It's literally the only car in the car park. Just whipped it off and whipped my top off, just walked around the forest for like two and a half hours on my own.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Like some kind of Davidoff cool water advert.

SPEAKER_04 52:36

Oh mate, it's absolutely glorious, you know, just being present the whole time, no headphones, yeah. Just silence, that's nice, mate. And it's like I d I think for the I had that honeymoon period of coming home from treatment and then just not doing anything and just having loads of presence, and now I'm going back to reality. I'm realising how precious the presence is. Yeah. And how hard it is to lose a in society.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

We well, we were just talking about this, weren't we, before we started recording? Was like I think we've talked about it quite a lot actually, but like the whole working to live, living to work thing, but I know I'm definitely in a a real conundrum with that. Since coming into recovery, the the the reality of having a house, spending all my life at work to pay for the said house so I can sleep in it really doesn't spur me on to want to live. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:48

Yeah, and I th I think you know what I the more this has been one of my problems my whole life is like just working to live. And what was that Tupac song? I can't remember what he says. Why am I dying to live if I'm just living to die? Yeah, right. And I I think you know it's it's so true. It however deep you are in the conspiracy theories, yeah, yeah, we are in a system.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

It is, mate, and that and it pushes it, it'll push you into disassociation and anything like that. Yeah just checking out you just like literally checking in, checking out of work, but like how many people enjoy their job really? Yeah, how many people actually like are like yes, work, whatever. So you kind of don't want to be present there because time kind of passes more easily when you're not, doesn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:43

In this fantasy world where you just scroll on your phone and well, and I think if you look at the the school system, you're you're basically trained to listen to people and to spend eight hours a day. Yeah. And then you go into into work and listening to your boss and sat down for eight hours a day. And it's just like I don't know. Once I can just I can't unsee it all. Uh I'm not a massive conspiracist, but I do think you you've uh we have a mortgage is basically a lifelong loan to keep you trapped.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

Yeah. And as soon as you step out of it, isn't it so like painfully obvious? Yeah. And and to to to force yourself to go back into it when you're trying to do right by yourself and be healthy and positive and promote positive mind state and a positive well-being, it's like that is just completely against the grain.

SPEAKER_04 55:44

That's what I have, man. Yeah, yeah. I've got bills to pay. I'm like, oh my god, what is this uh back? Well, it's good it's it's quite fun stuff at the minute, but yeah, I'm I'm I'm literally doing that. It's against what I my values and my beliefs, but I think when you have it, and when there's ch when you have children, it's uh I f it's it's a bit more tricky, isn't it? Yeah to figure to figure out what's best.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 56:18

And yeah, the system. Enough said on that. Yeah. I digress. Spend another 12 hours chatting about we perhaps we should do another podcast. Oh yeah. Oh conspiracies.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

I hear they're popular. Yeah, coming back into your body after years of being in that state can take some serious work. I've done a lot of it with my therapist. I think we can go through some some good tools for the listeners to use. Should you be in this state or think you're in this state, or know someone who is, but I we might repeat ourselves a bit here, but so the first so with my therapist, one of the first things when she did the assessment on me was the word disassociation in capital letters underlined with an exclamation mark. Only one. But she said about disassociation and and taught me through what it was, and you know, basically brought me to the realisation that I disassociated very hard. And then we'd done talking therapy about it. And it for for me it's with with all of my recovery stuff, it's about treating the root cause, not the symptoms. Because this that doesn't really work for me. Well, I don't think it works for anyone really, but it can it can buy people some time, I guess. Yeah, so so her having the understanding of why I've been disassociated from things that have happened to me and been able to talk me through that in talking therapy, and then we've done EMDR around those things as well, so like the subconscious stuff, which has worked really well in in processing the issues that have caused learnt behaviours that put me in that mind state. So I think going forward I'm quite aware of things that cause me to want to disassociate, to escape. I hope so anyway. But yeah, so so I can I can I can I can really recommend any kind of therapy for that.

SPEAKER_04 58:46

Yeah. I think for me in treatment I did a lot of radical acceptance. Yeah. And that was kind of well, I would I would still say I don't have I haven't actually come back to myself yet, still emotionally numb and you know, flat. But I'm also heavily medicated, so I'm sure that contributes to it as well.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

Yeah. But you you've got to be more more at at one now than you have been for a long time, right?

SPEAKER_04 59:14

Yeah, yeah. And I think more present. I think like meditating helps me with the my sound balls, yeah, or not with with the 54321.

SPEAKER_00 59:24

Yeah, talk us through 54321. We were talking about this earlier, but I've I've not come across it before.

SPEAKER_04 59:30

Yeah, so I went to an event, forest bathing. Forest bathing, next big thing. Yeah, yeah. And they we did this in the forest, and so you have each of your senses, I can't remember the order they go in. So five things you sit in the meditative position, five things you can see. Well, you name them. Yeah, yeah. Internally you just spot them, tell yourself them so you're you're obviously present, yeah, and you're you're naming them. You you close your eyes. You don't have to close your eyes, but that helps me focus on so Forest Bourbon, focusing on the birds, there's the slight hum of the traffic of Bristol, the the trees talking to each other with the wind, and you know you can hear other things, people walking their dogs, for example. Yeah. And you just you you're focusing on your senses, so you're trying to hear four things. Yeah. So it's kind of forcing yourself to to use your senses and your you know, your intuition, and then three things you touch. So one of the things that take your shoes off if you're comfortable and be barefoot in the forest, you sat, you had to find your own spot. So for example, I sat at the base of a wet mossy tree, you know, it was covered in all sorts, so you can kind of touch them and the the moist leaves from all the rain, and you and you have that the smell, forest berving, the whole place it had been raining, just smell of foist. Foist. Forest, foist. You know, just that moisture smell. That foisty smell. Yeah. And then one thing you can taste, and it kind of activates each of your senses. Yeah, I like that. And because it's a whole process, by the time it's it's like 10 minutes of meditating. Yeah. If you t if you do it slowly. And that's forcing you to be present, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and if you take yeah, if you t take your time, it's not like you're running around trying to get the inflatable banana and supermarket sweep. Yeah. Just rip off that like £20 sign. So yeah, it's good. And it's it's probably the easiest way of reconnecting. Yeah. It's quite a good thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:50

So and and another one that's a sort of like a physical one like that that I've done before is the finger to thumb thing. There's that film, isn't there? Like the accountant or something, where he's a bit mental and he has to like No, it's not. It's Yeah, no, it's Mark Mark Wild Barrett in a military film. But yeah, so he maybe that's where we got it from. I don't know. You tap your thumb to your pointing finger, tap your thumb to your index finger, and then so on across your fingers, and then back in the pattern whilst naming things that you're doing on each tap. So it'd be breathing, sitting, sweating.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

No, podcasting. But but like that, which again it's it's it's doing that brain body thing. Yeah. Just bringing you in in line. I I I find that quite good for my brain to sort of like it quiets down the noise somehow. What's what's name it then use it? You were you talking about this earlier?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:57

I just met a like an um Anchorman where he's it's is it Steve Carroll? I don't know. And he's just like, I love lamp, and he doesn't say anything else. He just names it. Lamp, I love lamb. Yeah, but I guess you know, naming it. It's similar to what you said, I guess, about eating. Similar is being present through naming something.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

Oh, so don't just name what you see, say what it's for, chair for sitting, cup for drinking, adding meaning to reduce the unreal feeling faster. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:36

Rather than just going through the motions.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going a bit deeper.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:42

Yeah, quite like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:43

And then the one of the very trendy things at the minute is the the you know, the sauna and the ice. Yeah, I think I think that's one of the things that I try and do every Sunday now, is go for a sauna and then do the ice. And it just fit leaves me feeling grounded. Yeah. I don't think it f leaves me feeling more connected. Just eases my nervous system.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:12

Yeah, right. Yeah. And yeah. Well it does, doesn't it? It does it does soothe your your nervous system. Yeah. Making it work a bit.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:23

And I think one of the I actually I actually learned this in in treatment as well as putting get getting your shoes off, getting your feet on the ground, on the grass. Yeah. And um I actually learned not that I've I've done it that often, but how to walk and meditate. But that there's a technique of walking meditation from the east, and it's it's just consciously like lifting every part of your foot and having the same technique and placing it down and kind of being fully focused on each step, and you can walk ten ten paces, you can do a walk around this whole field, yeah. But or you can do ten forwards, ten back, and just try and say if you say in the UK you're on a laminate floor, and you try and focus on putting your feet on this each bit of wood the same bit every time, yeah. And then you'll focus, you you're you're meditating while you're focusing, yeah. You're breathing in steps, quite a powerful thing. Yeah, nice. But obviously doing that on the grass and being connected with earth.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

Yeah, literally grinding yourself as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

Some cool tools, yeah. So and um and then but again, rather than treating the symptoms, you're better off knowing what causes it. So no know your triggers, isn't it? So the stress, the trauma reminders, lack of sleep, sensory overload, just just recognizing that run-up. So you so you ground early, the halt, mnemonic, hungry, angry, lonely, tired. If you're any of those, you know, you're you're one foot one foot out the door. And then yeah, going deeper, like we said before, the CBT therapy, talking therapy, and then EMDR to address the route. And like you were you were talking about the that window of tolerance. Yeah. Building capacity to stay present.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:31

Yeah. Um and I d and I think one of the things I've said before is j I journal. And then if I'm well, I've not journaled for a few weeks actually. I needed Really. I needed a break. And it's been the World Cup. So I've been tired and then even or staying up.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:50

It's like two o'clock in the morning.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:52

Yeah, I need to get back on it though, because you know that I need to write ideally I need to write down that feeling of depression the last few days. Because it's it's tracking it and catching it early. And this is what even though it's been two years, like stopping the journaling. It's it's those things that if I don't keep doing it, then it's like, oh I'm fine, then I'll end up stopping the meds. And one thing leads to another, and it's it's keeping I do I do need to even just saying it now, I know that I need to keep doing it. Yeah. And it is because it catches these patterns early.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

So yeah. So how does that work for you? You recognise it more because you've journalled it and then you're more conscious of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:39

And then if a if a trigger comes up, I'll like I can look back and see when I was triggered like that again. Obviously, I've got a few years of journals now. So what it's not that easy.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

How how do you would you go back though and cross-reference? If I if I if I just read every page.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:58

Not every page. There are that I usually do a one page for every day. Yeah, okay. I I won't sit and journal like 16 pages for I keep it, so like fee what what do I usually put? I put how I'm feeling, what I'm grateful for, what's in the day. This is this has kind of slipped a bit as well. But I used to what have I done for my recovery today? And I'd have my non-negotiables, which is my morning routine, yeah, journaling, exercise, you know. Seven things I think is on there, and I would tick off what I've done. And if I hadn't done it that day, I'd try and make sure that I'd do it all the next day. Yeah, yeah, nice. But even that's kind of slipped. Yeah. But I I do the basics and then and then I write if I'm triggered or where I'm at, how my what I've experienced in the day, and then I can kind of flick through if there's any patterns emerging.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:55

It uh I don't know if I've said it before in here or not, but the journaling just doesn't work for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:01

But I gave to that's it, isn't it? Every some stuff works for some people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

I it's it's annoying because well, is it annoying? I don't know. It's frustrating because uh everyone says journal my therapist, every you know, ev everyone is like, oh yeah, it should journal about it, but I don't know, putting pen to paper doesn't isn't good for me. It's like I find it a chore rather than uh I don't get like released from it. I'm just concentrating on how to spell words and then but it's just pointless really what it feels like. Yeah. So talking about coming coming back coming back into sort of like presence, what is that that works best for you? Real talk.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:49

To to come back present, to be present.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

Yeah, like we ever think we talked about summarise up what is what is the best tools that you use for coming out of dissociation, coming back into the brain body, yourself.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:06

I I think going to the gym exercise, nice listening to Lincoln Park at excessively low temperatures. No, I think going to the gym med meditating 100% is the brings me back. And I think I've said before, the if if I can't focus, I either use my samples or I I light the candle and you watch the the flame dance and then that's your focus. Yeah, no just get out for a walk, don't take headphones like I did the other day. It was just like that is presence. Yeah. And it all works, but when you're when you're in it, it's not as easy to be like, Oh yeah, I'm just gonna go and snap out of it and do this. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

You've got to recognise it first, yeah. That's the hardest part, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:01

Yeah, but now you like now you have that awareness, you can catch it and you'd be like, Oh, those last few hours have gone like that, I've not done anything. Yeah, you'd be like, right, I need to do something to change it. And I think you know, ultimately we'd be present all the time, but it's it's not possible. What what what what would you say that works for you on that front?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:24

The best things for me are the therapy. Yeah. Definitely. If if you're listening and you haven't done therapy just do some kind of therapy if you can. You can get free access to therapy through your GPs and your local council talking therapies, just ask your GP. Then the the the e annoyingly the eating thing. Because that's what one thing that I just just I'm just like my I'm I don't know where I am when I'm eating, but I'm just I just hoover food. I don't even chew half of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:07

Well, I I'm eating so much at the minute, I'm just gonna I'm just forcing it in when I swallowing sausages whole. Yeah, veggie sausages. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've just been having like 1,200 calorie smoothies to try and to try to try and get to try and get and it's like just drinking all of oh my gods. I don't even want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:34

Yeah. So therapy what did I just say? It's late in it. This is late, I'm tired. Therapy conscious eating, conscious eating, gratitude, doing a gratitude list first thing in the morning is br is it's like you said before, you know, uh not I can't not do it. It yeah, it it brings me into the present, it makes me realise that fucking uh uh all the fuzziness sort of disappears from the edges, and it's like fucking hell, look at what's in front of you, look at what you've got to be grateful for, yeah. Look at all that stuff, fucking wake up. Yeah. So I have to do that. Yeah, and just just taking a moment throughout the day when I can. I have I have my check-in alarms that go off throughout the day, I have three of them. They it doesn't work perfectly, it'll go off during a conversation or whatever, and I've I'll miss it sometimes. But most of the time when I c when I catch it and I'm able to do so, I take that moment just to just to just to wake up is kind of how I see it. Just to be like, hang on, no, come on, take it in, like actually look. I do like a double long blink, soak up a few things around me, look at some detail in some stuff, look at the texture of some things, and just really, really round off a sort of like, you know, any 10-20 seconds worth of coming coming back, yeah, literally. Yeah, and that's that's that that for me is the most important set of things that works at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:12

Yeah, and I think if anyone who's listening, if they have any good things they use, then we'd love to hear.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:20

Yeah, for sure. 100%, yeah, yeah, yeah. Get them in the comments or send them in or do whatever. Yeah, it'd be good to see people passing round skills. We'll put we'll try and put as much of this in the show notes as well. The tools and bits and bobs. Cause yeah, God, you it's only until someone points it out that that that conscious eating thing, honestly, I can't believe I've never I've never come across it before. Yeah. And look, I'm such a gluttonous animal that I would have just gone on the rest of my life just you know, not doing it. And like that lunch I had today. So nice. Yeah. I've had that breakfast at that place so many times, and today was the nicest one I've ever had. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it oh it's the same stuff, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:06

Part part of part of Ayurveda is that slow eating. Is it yeah? It's thousands of years old that from the Sanskrits. Yeah, really. But when you go to like a well, I've been to an Ayurveda thing before during the day, and there's a lunch and there's like a slow eating table and a normally and it's like, oh, I I really should sit on the slow eating table, but I'm starving.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:34

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't there's probably something that it's probably maybe there's someone listening will know, but there's probably something else. There's probably something that's I think I get a feeling from being full quickly. Yeah. I get a certain feeling inside me which makes me feel safe, I think. Yeah. But that's probably a whole another kettle of fish that I don't need to worry about just yet. Right. Do you want to give us a bit of a closing statement?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:03

You want me to do it? Yeah, go on. Okay. Thanks for listening, guys. I'm gonna close it with leaving kept us alive when staying wasn't survivable. That's worth respecting, not hurting. But the work now is learning that it's safe to be here in your body, in the room, in a in the actual life, not watching it through glass glass, living in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:29

Nice man. Didn't sound scripted at all. So fuck off. Nice to have a little close-out statement. Yeah. Yeah, wicked, thanks for listening, guys. We'll see you in the next episode. Take it easy.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:00

More to chase, more to know, more to escape, more screams, more pills, more noise, more thrills. We wanted more. We lost ourselves. We paid the call. The deeper we tell.